User talk:Former User aDB0haVymg

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-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 13:57, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

China and freedom of expression

Hi,

I'm not sure we're going to get much feedback on this, even though I posted notices about the debate on a couple WP-en articles. Since it's a judgement call, rather than a dispute over the facts, if we don't get people saying otherwise, I'm willing to concede and stripe China tan as you've proposed. (Though grey for Macau, pending sources?) Are you actually in China, so you're living this, or are you basing your judgements on comments from friends? Either way, you're better informed of the situation than I am, and so are presumably better able to judge. Though, if the recent censorship rules singling out homosexuality as a perversion are dropped, do we go back to grey?

Kwamikagami (talk) 08:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Thank you for your message. I'm glad we can work this out in a peaceful manner. I am a Chinese-Australian lesbian; though I don't live in China any more, I still have enough bona-fide connections there to know what they're going through. I will keep an eye out for reliable information about the changing situation in China (and of course you're more than welcome to do the same if you can be bothered). Yes, if the censorship rule gets dropped (and no new ones pop up), I'll more than support giving China credit on the map. Similarly, if the situation changes (or more reliable sources emerge) such that the legal guardianship is no longer allowed (trust me, I really, really don't want this to happen), I'll have to propose removing the blue colour. --Vakrieger (talk) 08:43, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. I suspect that the guardianship law isn't much used simply because it wasn't well known, but of course you could be right that officials in smaller cities will balk at allowing it for SS couples. If that proves to be the case, and becomes a pattern that isn't overridden by the courts, then of course we'd need to go to dots for the cities where it is followed. (If it's not a general pattern, then I would suggest tan dots for the cities where it isn't allowed, like for the Alabama counties that don't allow marriage.) And of course if the national govt clarifies that that's not what they meant and to stop using it for SS couples, even if they don't revoke the existing guardianships, then yes, of course we'd remove the blue entirely. (We could have a ring for individual cases, but why bother?) Though there are promising statements from the govt too -- the idea that China is too conservative to allow SSM *yet* (rather than it's inherently inappropriate for China or is a Western plot), the praise of Taiwan for their SSM law -- so I do hold out some hope that things will progress, and the govt just wants to take it very very slowly, or that there are factions battling it out behind the scenes.

And yes, if they drop the current censorship rules but then come up with something equivalent or worse, then of course the tan would stay (or go back). Kwamikagami (talk) 20:13, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Still no comment. I really don't think we're going to get much. So, even though I'm not convinced by your POV, you do know the situation better so I think your POV should take precedence over mine, pending the unlikely possibility that we get relevant feedback. So I'll go ahead and restore the tan stripes, though I'll leave Macau grey too since you haven't responded to that. We don't need to worry about HK because it's colored lavender for its rec of married foreign residents.

Part of my reticence is just that the map just looks so much more optimistic with China blue! Kwamikagami (talk) 20:19, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Ah, you already did that. Okay, I'll just change Macao, unless you have evidence that the censorship rules apply there. Kwamikagami (talk) 20:23, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Changed the Asia map to match. Kwamikagami (talk) 20:39, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• Thank you for updating the maps. I appreciate your optimism and good will for the Chinese LGBT+ people. I have no interest in purposefully smearing or praising China (or any other nation), because accuracy and neutrality is more important -- if the situation is bleak, pretending it's positive won't actually make it so. Let's keep an eye out and see how the situation evolves. --Vakrieger (talk) 11:56, 30 August 2019 (UTC)