File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 4

Yafran to rebels?

According to Reuters, Yafran is in rebel hands and under heavy siege: 1. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:57, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

just fixed it--Rafy (talk) 19:14, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Yafran should be all blue until the situation gets more clear, because it was the rebels not the loyalists who claimed that government troops had taken Yafran. EkoGraf

Eh, the Reuters article is pretty clear about the control... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm just saying it's strange the rebels would say the town was under loyalist control one day and than three days later say it was in their hands like nothing happened. EkoGraf (talk) 06:02, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I think what is most likely is that there was a loss of communication with the town or some group of rebels retreated from it, unknowingly leaving another behind. Communication in that extremity of the Nafusa range is very poor, I've heard. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 09:45, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Yefren again

Video [1] from an Army soldier of loyalists in the city center and looting shops. This would confirm loyalists are in control of the Yefren city center. And plus today rebels in Zintan confirmed they have not had contact with Yefren for more than a week. I belive that earlier report by the rebels that the town had fallen is true and the city is now isolated from the rest of the mountains, thus in fact still under siege, as that was the term that was used, but under loyalist control. The rebels are most likely, like they themselves said in those earlier reports, still around Yefren in the mountain villages but they don't control Yefren anymore. EkoGraf (talk) 20:17, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

At one point or another Gaddafi's forces were in yefren, but we don't know when the video was taken. Just by being in the center does not mean the city is not contested either. It must still be kept at blue.Zenithfel (talk) 22:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Than we are probably having a Misrata situation here, just reversed, with loyalists in the inner part of the town, while the rebels are on the outside in the outlying villages. In that case it should be green with a blue circle/ring. Because, however way you slice it the rebels did confirm that the town had fallen three weeks ago. The reports since than of rebels active in the area were most likely talking about those outlying villages and rebel attempts to reinfiltrate the town. EkoGraf (talk) 00:49, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I recall hearing that the rebels have lost contact with Yafran. Just because G-unit is looting the city centre does not mean they have taken the city; it could just be a raid like in Ajdabiya. The current all-blue circle is best until we have a definitive answer from a reliable news source, because using a sketchy-looking video is w:WP:OR. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I think I finaly get what's going on in Yafran based on this (dubiously reliable) source [2]. The loyalists hold the city center and much of the town but (based on what we heared previously) rebels are conducting constant raids against loyalists from the surrounding mountain villages. EkoGraf (talk) 06:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Kufra

State TV claimed Kufra was taken by loyalists. A civilian and a rebel in the city claimed that it was taken by loyalists. A rebel spokesman from Benghazi claimed that the town is 75 percent under loyalist control. The key here are the civilian and the rebel in the city (possibiliy of spokesman saying propaganda to lift moral?). So I think the best solution for this situation is to put Kufra to green but encircle it with blue, indication like Misrata, most of the city controled by one side but the other side is still around it. EkoGraf

Confirmed, Kufra still under loyalist control. Kufra loyalist governer ordered the staff of the Sudanese consulate in the town to evacuate. Source here [3]. Please change to green. EkoGraf (talk) 22:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

No dude, they just announced Kufra/Al Jawf is in complete rebel control, all the chadian mercenaries/loyalists went away or died. Check here [4] (79.169.199.80 01:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC))

Let's wait for real confirmation from a reliable source to confirm that... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Is this enough? [5](79.169.199.80 01:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC))

Regarding the current situation, it's even more confusing for me. Btw.: what's monstersandcritics? Doesn't sound very credible to me. Elllit (talk) 11:39, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it sounds kind of sketchy. Most recents reports indicate "heavy fighting" with no clear victor as of yet: [6]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:13, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Al Jazeera reports that rebels now control Al Kufra [7]. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

They were citing a rebel source in the Arabic version article[8].Still not good enough I'm afraid--Rafy (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Although I admin that solely rebel sources are not enough it´s the only thing we´ll be getting from that town, no journalist are there or will go there and it correspond with earlier reports about TNC sending reinforcements to retake that town. Also Jalu should be brown, we have reports about raiding parties which attacked Jalu but never entered it. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Misrata

According to this http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=450099&tid=88994 Misurata port was taken by Gaddafy forses and about 500 rebels surrendered. This link is in Russian language. If somebody has another source to confirm that?

Sorry, didn't happen. Ships arrive daily, unless mines need to be cleared away. The port only gets artillery shelled. Gaddafi's infantry have never reached the port yet.

Google translate - "Libyan port of Misurata passed into the hands of government forces, rebels surrounded on all sides. , Told Deputy Secretary of General People's Committee for Foreign Liaison and International Cooperation Jamahiriya Khaled Qaim."

Goverment propaganda. The same peple who say they control 90% of Misrata. Last week they claimed control over the port, and 2 weeks ago they claimed they will remove all forces and let "tribes" deal with them. Zenithfel (talk) 20:29, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Wazzin

I think Wazzin should be added. It apeared a lot of times in the news. --Ave César Filito (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Gladly; as soon as I know who has control of it ;) Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Now there is a batle there. I suggest add it and put it in blue. --Ave César Filito (talk) 21:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Just added it. I don't really follow the news so I just put it under control of rebels but sieged by loyalists.--Rafy (talk) 14:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Yalu/Jalu

I think that we shoud add the desert town Yalu/Jalu

Yes, this is the 2nd time it's been in the news. Kwamikagami (talk) 12:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 14:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Jalu is not unclear at last I checked. Some loyalists made raids on it, but it isn't contested AFAIK. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Changed it to besieged by loyalists.--Rafy (talk) 23:01, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli

Al Jazeera English cites AFP in saying the following:

2:15pm

Libyan rebels captured the airport in the western city of Misurata after fierce fighting with Muammar Gaddafi's forces on Wednesday, an AFP correspondent at the scene reported.

The rebels were in full control of the airport, with hundreds celebrating in the streets, the correspondent said.

I'm a bit taken aback by the news. Never thought such news would actually be reported in a reliable news source; such things are usually propagated by the Twitter Rumour Mill. But this time it seems legitimate. Tripoli to blue-ringed green? Or do we wait a bit? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:05, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Whoops, nevermind. Read Misurata as Mitiga. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:07, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I was about to reply: "wow, you are a little premature about Tripoli, in fact it is Misurata!" :) Anyways, it seems like we have to remove the blue ring around Misurata soon. Elllit (talk) 13:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Looks like it. I guess my mind leapt to a hasty assumption because AJE reported yesterday that rebels had raised their flag at Mitiga in an act of civil disobedience. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

We shouldn't remove the blue circle unless there are no longer any attacks on the city. This doesn't appear to yet be the case. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:55, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah, of course... I didn't intend to ask for an immediate change. Elllit (talk) 10:22, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Misrata as of May 15th

Both, the "Battle for Misrata" map and the "Tripolitanian Front" map, are now changed in a way that suggests Misrata is firmly in freedom fighter hands. And although NATO air strikes are still beeing conducted around Misrata, which would suggest Gadaffi forces are still in the outskirts, it seems they are are not able to besiege the city any longer. At least that is what both maps above would state. I therefore pledge suggest to remove the blue ring around Misrata until a counter-offensive of Gadaffi forces is reported. Any opinions? Elllit (talk) 18:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I also think the blue ring should be removed. A consensus was reached at the Wikipedia:Battle of Misrata page that anti-Gaddafi forces are in firm control of the city. The results section of the infobox lists the battle as an anti-Gaddafi victory. Infernoapple (talk) 23:47, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. This source also suggests that rebel forces have reached Zlitan and are attempting to take the city: [9] -Kudzu1 (talk) 00:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

see Magog's comment at File_talk:Libyan_Uprising.svg#Tripoli (right above...) Ansh666 (talk) 00:21, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm aware of his comment and it was legit five days ago. (It may be still legit - are there still clashes?), I just see two maps (and articles) suggesting one thing while this map suggest something different which seems inconsistent to me. Elllit (talk) 00:43, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

New updates

I think there should be some updates on the map. Yafran should be considered under loyalist siege, since the rebels control the town. Zliten and Brega should be under siege by the rebels. Tripoli should be Blue. Al Jawf should be under control of the rebels. 158.162.21.15 11:46, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

w:WB:V?--Rafy (talk) 12:45, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Yafran: Reports are conflicting; the city has been cut off from communications for weeks. Videos have surfaced purporting to depict loyalists looting the city centre.

Zliten: Rebels seem to have decided to hold off on any assault for fear of heavy losses.

Brega: No word of any new rebel offensive getting underway at last I checked.

Tripoli: Civil disobedience + isolated protests ≠ contested city.

Al Jawf: Out of the way of independent media; situation difficult to determine. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

As for Al Jawf/Al Kufra, Al Jazeera Arabic made this report [10] in which they traveled with rebel fighters to rebel held Al Jawf so it should go to brown together with Jalu. --EllsworthSK (talk) 10:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

There must be 3 kinds of wikipedia:
1. for rebels supporters
2. for loyalists
3. for people who wants to know REAL situation.
Some people here are very funny. Sometimes they "believe" on unreliable sources, sometimes not.
Every time word "reliable" depends on information - who is advancing and who not.
For these people there are official propaganda and rebel propaganda.
Please don't fill this pages with comments based on your wishes! — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.78.144.30 (talk) 05:47, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

There is fighting in Misrata

There`s still fighting in Misrata, Reuters reports. Blue? --Ave César Filito (talk) 21:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

No, there isn't. The headline is slightly misleading. The second paragraph says, "The doctor said most of the casualties were rebel fighters killed in battles on the western and eastern edges of the city." The rebels have been pushing out of the city proper, and these causalities where likely in the Dafniya/Naimah or Tawargha areas. There hasn't been shelling in three days, let alone fighting. See [11] 71.227.88.140 01:07, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I say as soon as there's shelling or fighting of any sort, it gets a blue border again. Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree. EkoGraf

I have proposal for maps: Instead of coloring cities and rings arroun them in case of siege - draw frontline :) It is not easy to decide where is exactly frontline, but is difficult to define distance from city which causes "besieged" or not. Using frontline make easy to understand enemies positions. In current way of drawing maps - to make situation clear you have to add more and more cities :(

Well, there are maps roughly depicting the front lines. "Battle for Misrata" , "Tripolitanian Front" and "Gulf of Sirt Front". Adding those features here would overload the map, imho. Elllit (talk) 12:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Wazzin captured by Loyalists

Al Jazeera:

"Libya's rebel-held Western Mountains came under intense bombardment on Tuesday from Muammar Gaddafi's army, forcing rebels to briefly pull back from the border with Tunisia as rockets slammed into the desert.

"Although they managed to retain control of the Dehiba-Wazin border crossing, rebels said it was the most sustained bombardment for at least a week, killing three of their men and wounding several others."

I think Wazzin should be moved to green. --Ave César Filito (talk) 21:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Uh, no. Look at that second paragraph: Although they managed to retain control of the Dehiba-Wazin border crossing. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. I read wrongly. I thought it said that Loyalists maneged to retain control over Dehiba-Wazin border. --Ave César Filito (talk) 22:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Oil : fields, pipelines, ports

Libyan's Oil field, pipeline, reffineries and storages.

Since Oil make up to ~60% of Lybia's incomes, and that money will hugely affect the war, it will be really meaningful to include fields, pipelines, oil ports on the map. Who control oil export control money. Who control money can pay people and weapons. Who have more supporters, soldiers and weapons start well to win the war.

So, any good source for oil fields, pipelines, ports ? Yug (talk) 07:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea of we are to those details to a more detailed map as this one has enough details.--Rafy (talk) 23:39, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

So we agree that oil is relevant. Technically, : use thin lines and transparency, so they will not appear in the miniature, but will on the full size map. The question is : do we have a source ? Yug (talk) 14:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

There it is !!! A good source for the oil issue ! please, make the colors softer (transparency) and the lines thiner, to include these key oil resource/pipeline on the map. Yug (talk) 17:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Why not provide both maps? They have both distinct purposes and are both not overloaded. Everyone interested into "who controls which oil port/line/field" could compare the maps. If someone makes the work to integrate the 'oil-map' into the 'front-line-maps' without the oil-details "appearing in the miniature": you are welcome. But I don't see the the benefit... I assume, that a low percentage looks at the full scale map. When both maps are depicted as miniature next to each other it would be much better and give (almost) the same experience. Elllit (talk) 21:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

I tried combining both maps but the result looks too overloaded with symbols. I could make the refinery and oil storage symbols smaller but they would still look unpleasant when seen in the infobox. We just can't force all these info on a 300px picture.

BTW great map, shouldn't Sirt be a bit more to the east?--Rafy (talk) 18:21, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I was going to say the same; Sirte seems to be in the same location as Bin Jawad... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:31, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Sirte: My source put Sirte exactly there. But, well, my source was also made by an human, so that's seems a mistake.

Oil upon war map: Thanks Rafy for your efforts. I see you continously updating these some maps, thank you. For oil, I think the data is there, but should be greatly simplified : 1. keep the 'Major oil area' (exclude small black dots), 2. reduce the pipelines to some representative lines OR make small-transparents lines. 3. Rafineries and storages can be reduced to one black drop icon for 'Oil refinery or storage'. This drop can be put northward a city circle, or inside this circle, as you see it fit best.

Oil's importance: for me, the more important is to show that Sirte, Ras Lanuf, Brega, Ajdabiya's infrastructures are critical to say who is the major share holder of Lybian's wealth (oil). For now, 75% of the critical oil infrastructures are still in Gadaffi's hand, which is thus still the main share holder of Lybian's wealth. Yug (talk) 10:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid there is no way to control transparency the way you mentioned. However, reducing opacity might create something useful, I will upload a test image to see how it renders.--Rafy (talk) 11:05, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Zliten

Why Zliten is still with no blue circle??? — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 31.63.222.167 (talk) 18:34, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Fighting has stalled 20km outside the city. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Can you give any sources beside Twitter or feb17.com? And are any of them not using terms like: "X claims to ..."? Well, then it is considerable. Wikipedia shouldn't be a platform of believes, rather one of fact. (Or at least a reliably sourced one). Elllit (talk) 22:03, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Even opposition sources are saying that the frontline is between Dafniya and Naimah. Only thing they mentioned is insurgency in Zliten however that cannot be independently confirmed so that´s that. --EllsworthSK (talk) 13:21, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is finally some information about Zlitan: "A rebel spokesman in Zlitan, one of only three towns separating Misrata from Tripoli, said Gaddafi was arming criminals to crush a rebellion against his rule there." Does this make it contested? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so, not yet. Minor skirmishes at night, which are also being reported, and this report are not indicative of a city being realistically contested. All the major battles are still taking place outside the city around Dafniya and the Misrata rebels haven't moved on the city or laid siege to it yet. Hopefully they will take the city soon, though. Fovezer (talk) 02:24, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

---

Misratans attacking Gaddafi forces in Zliten for first time. Artillery in Zliten responding heavily. Put Zlitan to green with blue circle, and then red to blue circle if they somehow capture it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/libyan-rebels-stage-insurrection-in-zlitan/2011/06/10/AGpi44OH_story.html

Zenithfel (talk) 20:43, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Rebel attack on Zawiyah has been defeated by the loyalists. Reporters from Tripoli taken to Zawiyah and confirmed the streets are secured and the square (claimed by the rebels to be surrounded) is flying the green flag. Source here [12]. Please change Zawiyah to green. EkoGraf (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

It's been confirmed that the rebel attack on Zawiyah has been repelled, please change Zawiyah back to green. Also, I think Ghadames also should be back to green because after that one report that unarmed protesters showed up in the city and the military responded with artillery at them there have been no new reports of clashes from Ghadames. By all accounts the situation has reverted back to full loyalist control. Thank you. EkoGraf (talk) 04:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Stop the BIAS

This article and its discussion are full of BIAS, especially in favor of the rebels. Please don't make Tripoli contested, or Misrata un-contested, just because "A rebel/government spokesman said", the rebls and loyalists both have repeatedly lied for propaganda efforts, there needs to be either independant confirmation, or at least evidence that goes along with the original statement. --Rimlanin (talk)

+1. But notice that the volunteers working on these map have several times rejected rebel spokeman's claims, and reverted associated editions to the map. As far as I know, the position about Misrata is that the core city is now clearly in rebel hands, while fight still occur nearby. Yug (talk) 10:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

This map is based off of what is reported in reliable news sources like Reuters and Al Jazeera. Tripoli is not contested because reliable news sources do not report any significant conflict there. Misrata is uncontested because the main city is in rebel hands; the fighting is occurring around Ad Dafniyah and Tawergha. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Please be correct with info! Target is to collect information about real situation. 7 of my countryman suffered from Gaddafi rule/8 years i prison and under death sentence/.This have to make me anger on loyalists. But I'm still trying to find and show real information, not personal feelings. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.78.144.30 (talk) 17:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

re 77.78.144.30: I'm sorry to hear about that. By the way, if you speak native Arabic and have trouble in English, there are several people on this page who speak Arabic and would be glad to respond to you in Arabic. The rest of us could just use Google Translate to understand what you're saying. ;) Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

re Rimlanin: I have stated multiple times above that word of mouth needs to stop, so I agree Rimlanin. If you find any examples where non-reliable sources are being used, by all means let us know. I can't speak for others, but I personally will change the information if I'm around and see it. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:46, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

+1. However, it's ok to read such a comment every now and then. Makes you re-evaluate your own comments. :) Elllit (talk) 13:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Yafren

The page for the Nafusa Mountains claims that Yafren in back in Gaddafi's hands, i feel the map should reflect that

 Done--Rafy (talk) 10:57, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Yefren retaken by rebels, according to them: "Ali also said rebels in the Western Mountains had taken the city of Yafran, 100 km southwest of Tripoli and an area to the west called Wlad Atya on Thursday."[13] Should it be a red dot with blue border or back to solid blue? Fovezer (talk) 02:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Havn't seen any confirmation on this yet.

Here's another report of the recapture of Yafran: [14]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok I think we all agree on blue for now.--Rafy (talk)

Well, news agencies report Yefren green red (fx AP: [15]) relying on "rebel" sources. I guess it's commonly agreed on Wazen, Nalut & Zintan being green red (fx: [16]) --91.50.224.183 19:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC) Eric

I think you mean "red", not "green"... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:48, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Uh, ah, correct and corrected! --91.50.224.183 22:32, 3 June 2011 (UTC) Eric

And (another) confirmation by Reuters Elllit (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Yafran is controlled by rebels should be turned to redhttp://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/libya

Al Jazeera is reporting there is no sign of Gaddafist presence in Yafran: [17]. I think the blue circle should be removed. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Yep, should be removed. Same for Wazen, Nalut and Zintan. There have been several reports by an Al Jazeera team, Reuters and AP from this area.

Misrata

BBC and Al Jazeera are reporting the city is once again under attack by Gaddafi's forces. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:14, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The assault was beaten back and Gaddafi's forces were defeated. [18] The article also says the city of Misrata itself was not hit, so all these skirmishes were on the outskirts. Fovezer (talk) 17:32, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Very good. Worth keeping an eye on as it sounds like Gaddafi has enough troops to try again. -Kudzu1 (talk) 11:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Misrata has now been repeatedly shelled and attacked, it should be contested. Rebels still control the city,however, so brown within a blue circle. -Rimlanin (talk)

Ghadames

On the map, Ghadames is green. That doesn't exactly seem to jibe with reports on Al Jazeera that Gaddafist troops are shelling the town: [19] I think it should be changed to blue because we don't know what's going on there. -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 13:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Zliten

Zliten's color should be updated to reflect the Battle of Zliten. --93.139.143.79 08:04, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 13:34, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Zlitan should be completely blue, as there is fighting within the city, not just rebels from Misrata advancing: [20]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:12, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 11:43, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Fighting in Zawiya?

This clip from Al Jazeera seems to agree with online sources that there is fighting in Zawiya today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp7i-lqZdtA Should it be changed to blue since fighting is ongoing?

just unconfirmed rumours...--Rafy (talk) 13:33, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Per Reuters [21]. The coastal highway, which runs through Zawiya, has been shut down, too. Fovezer (talk) 15:39, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Loyalists claims they´ve captured Zawiya. See Reuters. Is there any independent confirmation? --Ave César Filito (talk) 20:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

AJE Live Blog reports this government claim as well. I'd wait a bit for the dust to settle on this one, though... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

They also claimed to have taken the Misrata port at one time when they never did. Not a very reliable source. All we know so far is that there is fighting there, per a number of sources. The extent of the fighting and who controls what is still unknown. Fovezer (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Read this at the Wikipedia article: "A group of foreign reporters were taken from Tripoli to Zawiyah for confirmation of the loyalist victory. The reporters confirmed that the city's streets were secured by government troops and the pro-Gaddafi green flag was flying at the main square, where hours earlier rebels claimed to had surrounded the loyalists and attacking them from three sides. The government stated that the opposition forces had been pushed out of the city and surrounded on the edge of Zawiyah." --Ave César Filito (talk) 21:54, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Read this from Reuters. [22] It says rebels in the city claim they are still fighting and that a reporter taken to Zawiyah heard gunshots. Also, per LibyaTV (a rebel source), the reporters were taken to the eastern side and city center, but not to the western side, where they claim there is fighting. [23] So, again, the situation is unclear at the moment. Let it play out some more. Fovezer (talk) 22:49, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Now it`s confirmed that Loyalists won. Read the Wikipedia article and the references that are there. --Ave César Filito (talk) 19:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Sabha

Why is it blue? I don't see anything about it anywhere (granted I don't really know where to look) Ansh666 (talk) 21:58, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

This report describes anti-Gaddafi protests there. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:57, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110612/wl_africa_afp/libyaconflict Fighting in Sabha as reported by Yahoo. --Skipbox (talk) 12:24, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

That`s what the Nacional Transitorial Council says. But, is there any independent confirmation? --Ave César Filito (talk) 15:20, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The farther into the interior of the country you go, the more difficult it is to get "independent confirmation", especially in areas controlled by Gaddafi. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:33, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Reports of fighting in Zawiya from reliable sources is based on reports from the National Transitional Council. There are no journalists there so we don't know. --Skipbox (talk) 16:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Reuters reported that and Loyalists confirmed it too. But Reuters or another nwes agency didn`t say anithing about Sabha. --Ave César Filito (talk) 17:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Yep. One more goes to the PR chaps working for NTC. Wonder when they will succeed in getting their control of Sirte into the articles ...109.230.2.249 02:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

See W:2011 Sabha clashes for some news sources. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:24, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Also see here. Also, there are no reports of any loyalist counterattacks in Sabha that I have seen, so I do not know why it is green again. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Sabha is back to blue... But I really think this is just another propaganda move by the TNC as none of the major news outlets in Libya (Al Jazeera, Reuter, CNN, BBC...) have reported about this. All the articles used as sources here originate from the same reporter, HADEEL AL-SHALCH, who is residing in Misrata, which raises some question marks.--Rafy (talk) 22:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

That is entirely possible, but it's just your own speculation. I don't think reporters on the ground in Libya even go that far south in Gaddafi-land, so we must use what we have. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:42, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Sabha is the fifth largest city in Libya. A battle to control it would have certainly attracted much more media attention. --Rafy (talk) 11:46, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Maybe. But it is rather remote, and I have noticed that the press tends to focus on one battleground at a time. The reports that have come out thus far indicate that there hasn't been a full-blown battle there yet, but violent protests have occurred and rebels have apparently occupied a residential district. It's not too unreasonable to think that something might be happening, though. Gaddafi probably relocated a good deal of his security forces and staunch supporters in the south and other areas he assumed to be loyal to him to the battlegrounds in the north, leaving an environment more receptive to unrest. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 12:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Yafran and Zintan secured by rebels

According to http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-libya-fighting-20110612,0,1882263.story , Zintan and Yefren have been confirmed taken and secured by the rebels. Can this be edited on the map?

There is still fighting http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/06/20116124372194590.html An article from one hour ago.--Skipbox (talk) 12:24, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Thats not fighting for Yefran and Zintan though but the last place in between thats still Gaddafi controlled. It's a different city.

"National Transitional Council Press releases"

It has come to my attention, that the map was modified several times because of these claims by the rebel government. This is obviously a BIASed information page, as it is controlled by the oppostion and with no independant verification. Please, do not edit the map on claims alone. The Press releases aren't solid enough. Then again, neither are government claims. Please have evidence before you edit. -Rimlanin (talk

The fighting in Zawiyah and Sabha, which is presumably what you are referring to, was reported on in reliable news sources. Next complaint, please. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:22, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Please don't mock him, Lothar. He has the right to question the reliability of some actions taken. In turn he should be presented with sources - what you did, thanks for that. But your last sentence was not necessary. Elllit (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Evidence is hard to come by. There are only few journalists in the Nafusa mountains and around Misrata (numbers growing). But I think the job done on the map here is not bad. Changes to the map are made when sources start piling up and are picked up by major news agencies or are reported by int'l journalists. A lot of sources have been rejected as too weak by other users here. Therefore, I don't share your point of view. Elllit (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Gharyan

This report says that there is fighting during the night in Gharyan. Should the map reflect this?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/15/libya-idUSLDE75E29K20110615

98.235.216.87 01:01, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

No, because Gaddafi's forces still clearly control the city and reporters who were there said as much. Skirmishes at night doesn't change that. We do have to keep an eye on it, though, because since the rebels secured most the mountains, Gharyan could be next in their sights. Fovezer (talk) 02:53, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Zliten to Loyalists

See w:Battle of Zliten. --Ave César Filito (talk) 19:08, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

You also changed Sabha from blue to green. 93.136.30.209 10:51, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

yes, it should still be blue. as per w:Talk:2011_Sabha_clashes the situation is pretty much unknown. Ansh666 (talk) 03:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Circle sizes

I presume that the size of the circles is supposed to give some indication of the size of the cities they represent. This should be clarified in the file description. In particular, it should be made clear what measure is being used (population? land area?). If my presumption is incorrect (perhaps the circle represents strategic value or something), then again this should be added to the file description.

I haven't taken it upon myself to do this since I don't know for sure what they represent. Cheers, Ben (talk) 02:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

It's population. Kwamikagami (talk) 09:34, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Marada

I don't have a source in front of me, but I was under the impression the rebels had made a thrust south of Brega and taken an area called Marada, cutting off Pro-G supply lines in Brega. I was also under the impression that Sabha was contested as well as Gharyan. Could someone who works on this map please take a look and see if there are any updates that should be made? I wish I knew how to do it. --70.91.205.225 21:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are some talk of Marada(h) on Twitter and here. Maradah is an oasis town in an active (normally, that is) petroleum production area. It's still far out in the desert, so I'm not sure how effective such a flanking operation may be. But (unreliable) reports tell of Brega now being isolated, so possibly there are frontline changes to come.--Paracel63 (talk) 21:50, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Al Jawf (2)

Is Al Jawf in Sudanese army hands? as was claim in one report? if so can the map indicate it? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.72.87.111 (talk) 08:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

What's your source for that one? I can't find it anywhere in English publications. Magog the Ogre (talk) 11:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

July 2 in the 'Timeline' page and reference therein. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2011_Libyan_civil_war#July —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.72.87.111 (talk) 12:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. That will make things very complicated, because we might need a new color, and the key is already written in 44 languages. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:21, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Obnoxiously, the article (link here: [24]) mentions the town of Kufra, which doesn't appear to exist. Kufra is a basin or a district. I think it's a safe assumption at this point that the writer meant the city of Al Jawf. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:30, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Zliten Contested

- Zliten should be changed to contested. --Wikiharr (talk) 21:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Brega

Rebels are launching the attacks on Brega, so it should have a blue circle. --93.139.241.103 15:49, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, from a recent press conference it seems G Forces have left the town but NLA forces still have to move in and clear the area of mines. Source: http://feb17.info/

Twitter sources have reported Brega as completely liberated. I followed along yesterday as they reported fighting in Area 1, and then at the airport. I realize that's not an official media source, but keep an eye out for news and the circle should definitely be blue. --Wikiharr (talk) 17:50, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Spoke too soon. Here's a source: Al Arabiya --Wikiharr (talk) 17:52, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Brega is surrounded. 122.106.56.245 02:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Fighting inside Brega http://af.reuters.com/article/commoditiesNews/idAFLDE76G08V20110717?sp=true -- 91.61.224.150 18:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Brega CONFIRMED Liberated: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0718/breaking25.html — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.204.238.73 (talk) 16:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Brega in rebel hand http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/07/2011718131010939797.html Loro-rojo (talk) 17:15, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Both of these are from rebel sources - no independent confirmation yet. However, the situation appears to be that Gaddafi's forces have fled Brega, but the rebels aren't in control either, due to landmines all over the city. I wonder how this can be indicated on the map... perhaps full blue. --NetRolller 3D (talk) 17:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that Brega HAS been retaken... see these articles: Press TV, Voice of America, Stuff.co.nz, although MyFoxAtlanta claims that both sides are saying that they have Brega, so perhaps full blue in the meantime? Or is this enough support? Metaknowledge (talk) 01:27, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

It sounds to me like it's still unclear, and we should set it as blue untli we have rock-solid confirmation. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:57, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I concur. All but rumors until now. Rebels will call Brega liberated once they think it is save. This includes no danger from land mines, or at least a reduced danger... no one knows how many of those awful devices are buried. Then journalists will be allowed to go there. Seems like a matter of hours now. On a different note: I admire how fast the rebels have learned strategies (and all the other essential stuff as well) and how they pull back once (non-fighting) people seem to be in danger! Elllit (talk) 08:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Brega is fully controlled by the rebels. Confirmed by France today. Change Brega to Brown. http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/07/19/gaddafi-is-no-longer-an-option-for-the-future/ 12.177.58.124 14:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I've marked it brown, but I'm also leaving it with a blue ring, because Tripoli has not confirmed its loss, so it appears it's still a bit of a battleground. Magog the Ogre (talk) 16:46, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Not fully, rebel spokesman confirmed that there are still pockets of surrounded loyalist forces (about 100-150 soldiers) in the vicinity of oil refinery and rebels are cautious because of the damage that could be done to facility from fighting and landmines. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:08, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed by rebels themselves they only hold a third of the town and are still fighting in the residential area [25] and rebel commanders denied the earlier French claim [26]. Green with blue ring is best for now since its a loyalist town under siege like Misrata was a rebel city under siege. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 22:05, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Based on the most recent information (e.g., [27]), it appears it's a dogfight with neither side properly controlling the city. I'm switching it to outright blue. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Qatrun

Reports that Qatrun, south of Sabha, in rebel hands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottbp (talk • contribs) 00:44, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Source? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:06, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Source seems to be this - Note it's spelled "Al-Gatron" in the article. 87.50.57.56 02:04, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

"It was impossible to verify the claims and rebels have been prone to exaggeration in the past." I've been watching this page for long enough that I concur with that assessment, and I say no dice until there's better sourcing. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I found a source in Spanish which says that there is fighting going on in the city and that it is in rebel hands. Here is the translation. I'd suggest that al-Qatrun be made blue for now. The "impossible to verify" for the first source was referring to claims of an advance from the "rebel-held city of Al Gatron". Note that the 'unverifiable claims' were not that the city had been taken, but that the rebels had advanced from it. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:58, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Wow; that Google translator is really good. A native couldn't have translated that paragraph better. Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Qatrun to rebels. [28]. Rebels also took village next to Sabha and well probably see battle taking place there shorty. Although the article says that these are forward units from Kufra opposition sources states that those are tribesmen whose tribes declared support to NTC and easily took border crossings with Chad and Niger, together with airbase near Qatrun. --EllsworthSK (talk) 23:10, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Could you provide some more text from that article? Not all of us are subscribers. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:40, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Subscribers? You do not need subscribtion for that article, it shows up to anybody. Anyway if you have problems opening you can find its text even here [29] Article clearly states that Al Qatrun, Tamma border crossing, Al Wigh air base and village of Umm Al-Aranib which is last village before Sabbha are under rebel control. Opposition sources have been talking about this for some time now but till now I took it as speculation but since journalist which wrote this article says that he contacted rebel commander on the ground in Fezzan, citizien of Al Quatrun and several other rebel commanders which all gave him same picture it seems that those info were solid after all. --EllsworthSK (talk) 16:59, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't read that article as saying Qatrun as been taken, although it seems likely. Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:11, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

A resident of the southern town of Al Qatrun, which rebels took last week, estimated the force includes 60 to 65 4X4 vehicles and as many as 300 fighters. --EllsworthSK (talk) 00:26, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Ah, the subscribers thing. Well I have a little hack which I shall not publish which lets me read WSJ articles (it's not that hard, but it is dishonest). And i can confirm that statement is there, so thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:45, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I dont understand, Im not WSJ subscriber, nor am I using hack of any sort and it their articles never wanted any subscrition from me. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:55, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

As for the map - Taraghin is NOT under rebel control. From WSJ article poste above The retreating Gadhafi forces concentrated in Taraghin, the hometown of Bashir Salah, Col. Gadhafi’s chief of staff, to block the rebel advance to Sebha. The rebel force simply went around the town, and on Monday took control of the tiny village of Umm Al-Aranib, they said. --EllsworthSK (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

User:EkoGraf

Why does it seem that User:EkoGraf seems to counter any source that is possible to go against the rebel/coalition forces? And I also seem to see constant siding with Gaddafi, I mean all of the user's actions are what seems to come together as biased, does anyone agree with me at all? Not trying to mean or anything, it just seems that way. ––Spesh531 (talk) 00:10, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Um, I looked at his posts and they were for the most part factually correct, more so then most people's, the fact is the Rebels tend to exaggerate their claims a bit and many people are prone to believe them including you, This section shouldn't even exist.

I have worked closely with EkoGraf since very early on in this conflict (as well as those in Syria and Yemen), and I can say that any talk of Gaddafi sympathising is rubbish. The problem is, after five months of seeing how the rebels exaggerate their successes (which is not unheard of in war), one becomes very wary of taking what is said at face value. To be fair, I think the regime is worse with exaggerations (zenga zenga!); however, nobody takes anything Gaddafi says seriously to begin with, while people are much more willing to believe rebel stories of success. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

My bad on that, it just seemed he had an answer to everything, I was kind of out of it yesterday (I live in Eastern Time Zone). ––Spesh531 (talk) 17:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

In general, whether it may be true or not, it is not considered courteous on wikipedia to just accuse users of having POVs. And even if they do have POVs, you should just try to work with them- sometimes they can put their POV aside for the sake of editing if you provide good evidence of your own claims. If this is helpful at all, EkoGraf is from Serbia (he said so once), so he obviously looks at the conflict from a different angle and reads separate sources, but that doesn't mean he is editing with an agenda. --Yalens (talk) 20:19, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Fill in the Blanks

I was thinking to possibly add cities/towns in that are of significance and that can be put in the southern and south eastern part of Libya. There are big gaps in the map between cities. ––Spesh531 (talk) 01:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

All towns that lie in the desert and are not depicted here are very small (>5,000). I don't think mentioning them is of any value. Also they could be added once a major clash/incident occurs there.--Rafy (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. There's absolutely no reason to add cities simply to fill space. That said, I think we might consider adding a couple towns, namely Taraghin, Umm Al-Aranib, and Al Wigh, as major points on the southern front. See the WSJ article here, which discusses the significance of each. --Quintucket (talk) 02:54, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Do you want me to add the three towns, I them saved on my file. ––Spesh531 (talk) 04:51, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

And about the size of the circles, they seem to be smallest at 8px, larger than some of the cities. ––Spesh531 (talk) 04:57, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by the circles. I think the image has layers. So if you can edit svgs (I can't find a free program that doesn't drive me crazy), you could probably copy the dots for Bin Jawad and Zintan. And yes, if you've already made the file, I'd say go for it. (And update Qatrun while you're at it.) Be bold. If there's any objections at this point, we can always discuss it further. --Quintucket (talk) 15:36, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

This is User:Spesh531 not logged in. I will add the towns, but I need to know what side has control of them, loyalists or rebels. --69.117.77.219 17:15, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Spesh: According to the WSJ article, they're all rebel-controlled except Taraghin, which is loyalist controlled (it's one of Qaddaffi's main concentrations of forces in southern Libya). --Quintucket (talk) 20:09, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think those tiny places deserve to be placed on this map just because there was a fleeting mention of them in an article, if we follow suit with every published news report then we will end up with a map filled with hundreds of tiny dots.

This map was meant to roughly represent main population centres of Libya according to this source. I promise to create a more detailed map of the "Southern front" similar to the Tripolitania front map if further clashes are reported there. I personally think it's just another rebel propaganda but we shall see in time.--Rafy (talk) 16:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Rafy, the dots matter because they give us an idea where the frontline is, and where important events happen. It's the same reason we added Bin Jawad. There's space to show it, and it's an important event in the timeline. Unlike, say the Nafusa Mountains, the southern front is sparse enough that there's no reason for a separate map. Though I don't think the uninhabited Tummu border crossing is worth showing.

As for accuracy, I was under the impression that the WSJ had an embedded reporter, though of course I could be wrong. Any rate, the WSJ is usually a very reliable source (at least where actual news is concerned), and tends to cover articles that other sources don't bother with. Any rate, apparently the rebels had been planning this for awhile. --Quintucket (talk) 17:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Kufra/Al-Jawf -> Sudan

An anonymous editor recently pointed out on this page that Kufra has been taken by the Sudanese army [30][31]. Thus it is neither in control of the rebels nor the government. How exactly should we deal with that? The first article seems to be implying that Sudan is clandestinely working with NATO (perhaps this is the reason we haven't heard much in the news? A request by higher-ups to the news organizations and/or them keeping jouranlists out?) Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:57, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Sudan denied any military involvement in Libya. See [32]. Most likely it was just bad journalism and journalist kind of get mixed in information about rebel clashes with Darfur rebels in Al Kufra region. Besides, borders of whole darfur region are under UNAMID supervision, they would´ve noticed Sudan military units invading another state, not even mentioning that Sudan military was heavily presented in South Kordofan at the time. --EllsworthSK (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Al Qatrun

Al Qatrun is taken by government forces. [33] DJ Sturm (talk) 19:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

A better source [34]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't this [35] suggest that nobody is in control? — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.158.218.252 (talk) 08:07, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Wazen

Reports show that Wazen is still being shelled by loyalists. I think it should probably have a blue ring around it 86.27.26.94 09:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Blue is only if actual serious combat is occurring and the town is actually being contested. Shelling is not serious combat, and Wazzin is not seriously contested. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Missing news

Last days are very "quiet" in news about Libya. Only talks about politics and negotiations. Strange. May be western news "makers" stopped because figters cannot attack/retreat as fast as news says :) I'm joking but it is strange this information gap last days. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.84.86.14 (talk) 06:03, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Zliten/Zlitan

So it looks like fighting in Zlitan is still ongoing. So I'm thinking the city should be shown as besieged by rebel forces. --Quintucket (talk) 21:10, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

A better source: [36]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

To be fair, although Suq Al Thulata is on outskirts of Zliten it is separate village. --EllsworthSK (talk) 09:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Things are still very warm in the vicinity of Zliten; I'd recommend re-adding the blue ring: 1 2 3 4. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:51, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

A recent article suggesting that Zliten has just been taken by the rebels [37]....Perhaps changing the whole thing to blue is a good idea until there are more sources — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.121.84.242 (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)