These should be moved to Category:Football in England & Category:Football in Scotland. The term soccer is almost unheard of in these countries. Likewise any subcategories of these categories that use the term soccer should also be moved. —JeremyA 00:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
[[Category:Commons backlog]]
- You can't change just those two categories since they are part of the Category:Soccer-tree. Either they are all socer or they are all something else. Since Category:Football is a supercategory for both American football, soccer and other "football sports" the only other alternative to soccer would be association football. As far as I understood that had even less support then soccer so therefore Category:Soccer it is. /Lokal_Profil 01:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Correction there are some categories with the Football prefix. These should probably be changed to Soccer and American football accordingly. Specifically Category:Football venues (a subcategory of American football and Category:Stadiums in the United States) is problematic. I recommend changing that to Category:American football venues in the United States since the current name indicates neither country nor specific sport. /Lokal_Profil 01:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- And going the other direction the subcategories of Category:Soccer uniforms should be Soccer uniforms from COUNTRY. /Lokal_Profil 01:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, have put down a series of move templates to the affected categories all pointing to this disscusion/monolog. /Lokal_Profil 15:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with JeremyA however. Soccer is not a word used in England or any other part of the world except in the United States. The correct term is "Football in England". If you want to talk about American football, then a category could be named "American football in England". I have problems changing every category to "Soccer something" simply because that is the American term, however not the term used in Britain. Gryffindor 22:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If you take a look at Category:Football you'll see that football can be any of 6 sports. The alternative to "soccer" would be "association football" so I'd say soccer is the lesser of two evils. /Lokal_Profil 00:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Copied here from User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands
- Objection: Soccer is an American English term that is not used in Britain or in France or Germany. I don't think there is a disambiguation clash, since "Football something X" in the European frame clearly refers to "Soccer" and not anything else. Gryffindor 22:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Currently, Category:Soccer (and its substructure) is for association football. I personally disagree with the use of this American English term. But, I disagree also with the infraction to the Universality principle (see Commons:Naming categories). So, if you want to maintain your position, open a discussion about the renaming of Category:Soccer. --Juiced lemon 22:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we can all agree that Category:football should be a topcategory for all types of football (there are more than two) anything else would lead to World War 3. So then the choice is "Association football" or "soccer", I believe that more people (non-american and american) would recoignise soccer then association football. Anyhow as long as the top category is soccer the subcategories should be called the same thing, the same thing goes for the "American football" subcategories. /Lokal_Profil 23:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- How about we leave all categories concerning (Association) football in the United States under the term "Soccer X" such as "Soccer venues in the United States", and the rest of the world with "Football X"? In the English Wikipedia they came up with a solution "Football (Soccer)". Maybe not the best solution but at least it's still a compromise. I think the overarching category Category:Football can remain as it is, since it concerns all forms. "Association Football" is not a good idea IMO because let's face it nobody uses that term in the general sense. Gryffindor 14:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm very much against changing the category name depending on where the stadium is placed. Anyhow lets continue the discussion at Commons:Categories for discussion/Current requests/2007/07/Category:Soccer in England & Category:Soccer in Scotland instead. /Lokal_Profil 22:15, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well we agree to let the category "Football" alone. Now we have to find a proper name instead of "Soccer" in that case. So I think we should just cut the gordian knot and have it as "Football (Soccer)" since that has been chewed over in the English Wikipedia more than enough and that's what the consensus was over there. Gryffindor 22:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand the need to change from "soccer" to "football" for the non-U.S. countries, but to change "football" to "American football" for the United States is similarly wrong. Just like the rest of the world doesn't call it soccer, we in the states don't call it American football - it's just football. In the case of college football, where the reference is clearly most common to the system involving American football, a notice can be placed similar to the one on the category at the English Wikipedia. It may not be the prettiest category structure, but it's currently downright wrong. --Fuzzy510 22:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The heading of this discussion might currently be slightly missleading. We're no longer talking about changing soccer to football, it's about changing all the subcategories of Soccer with football in their name and similar for the subcategories of American football. Additionally there is also a discussion about an alternative naming of the Soccer category-tree (but not just football). /Lokal_Profil 13:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The English Wikipedia article is Football (soccer). “Football (soccer)” is not handy to build compound names, like Football (soccer) in England.
Since the FIFA is the International Federation of Football Association, I think that the best solution is to build a structure from Category:Association football, like Category:Association football in England. --Juiced lemon 14:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We have two options: either have "American Football" and "Association Football", or leave "Football" for both American and European categories, which is potentially confusing though. Gryffindor 16:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We can also admit that American football is not really a football game, because the game is played with hands, too. --Juiced lemon 17:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- That is true too. So now what? Gryffindor 03:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was a joke. Unless we state a new definition, different than the one in the English Wikipedia, football is the name given to a number of different team sports, including American football.
According to the The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
, the etymology of soccer is: From alteration of assoc., abbreviation of association football. “Soccer” is a specific term of the American language, which is not popular in an international context. So, I think that Category:Soccer is unsuitable in Wikimedia Commons.
In my opinion, we have 3 main alternatives for the renaming of this category:
Assuming that we apply the Universality principle (see Commons:Naming categories#Principles), the name of the parent category X will be used “as is” to build subcategory names, like “Category:X in England”.
I suggest a poll to determine the choosed alternative. --Juiced lemon 09:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This poll aim to choose a name to refer to “association football” (see football (soccer)) in any category of the topics structure in Wikimedia Commons.
- From
September, 1st, 0:00 am
- To
September, 15th, 12:00 pm
Alternatives[edit]
A valid vote is an ordered list of different alternatives (at least one alternative), amongst the alternatives which will be listed on September, 1st, 0:00 am. Examples of valid votes:
There will be a votes count for each couple of alternatives. (A,B) is the number of times A is preferred to B.
- vote A means (A,B)=+1, (A,C)=+1 (A,D)=+1 (assuming there are 4 alternatives)
- vote A,B,C,D means (A,B)=+1, (A,C)=+1, (A,D)=+1, (B,C)=+1, (B,D)=+1, (C,D)=+1 (assuming there are 4 alternatives)
This count will determine which alternative(s) is (are) preferred to all other ones. We will possibly decide between the remaining alternatives with a points count (1st place=1 point, 2nd place=2 points...): the alternative with the lowest total will be choosed.
--Juiced lemon 10:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- B, A. /Lokal_Profil 20:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A, B. Powers 20:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- D, E. Lycaon 20:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- C, B, A Samulili 05:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- B, A --rimshottalk 10:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- B, E, C, D --Juiced lemon 03:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Votes count[edit]
| -\+ |
A |
B |
C |
D |
E
|
| a |
|
4 |
2 |
2 |
2
|
| b |
1 |
|
1 |
1 |
1
|
| c |
3 |
4 |
|
1 |
2
|
| d |
4 |
5 |
2 |
|
1
|
| e |
4 |
5 |
1 |
1 |
|
- (B,A)=1 (B,C)=1 (B,D)=1 (B,E)=1 (A,C)=1 (A,D)=1 (A,E)=1
- (A,B)=1 (A,C)=1 (A,D)=1 (A,E)=1 (B,C)=1 (B,D)=1 (B,E)=1
- (D,E)=1 (D,A)=1 (D,B)=1 (D,C)=1 (E,A)=1 (E,B)=1 (E,C)=1
- (C,B)=1 (C,A)=1 (C,D)=1 (C,E)=1 (B,A)=1 (B,D)=1 (B,E)=1 (A,D)=1 (A,E)=1
- (B,A)=1 (B,C)=1 (B,D)=1 (B,E)=1 (A,C)=1 (A,D)=1 (A,E)=1
- (B,E)=1 (B,C)=1 (B,D)=1 (B,A)=1 (E,C)=1 (E,D)=1 (E,A)=1 (C,D)=1 (C,A)=1 (D,A)=1
Result: Alternative B is preferred to any other alternative, so the categories related to Football (soccer) will be renamed according to the name of the top category: Category:Association football. --Juiced lemon 19:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that alternative D should probably be crossed out for the sake of peace. Since the name can in fact mean a whole family of sports (and is currently the category for this family) or any of the sports therin depending on in which country one is. All the other three names would however be unique for the sport in question. /Lokal_Profil 16:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- All the alternatives, except one, will be crossed out after the votes count. Anybody can add his own alternative, and the bad ones will be censored by the voters. --Juiced lemon 18:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but renaming a few hundred categories, claiming consensus with 5 voters and a very complex voting system does not do the trick for me. I will not process the requests on User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands and have moved them to User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands/soccer leaving only a link in one topic on User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands. Cheers! Siebrand 09:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Although I might have a preference I don't care which of the names the category tree goes under the main thing is that we pick one and stick with it because the current structure isn't sustainable. Currently the main category is called Soccer but within it are lots of subcategories starting with Football, to add to this confusion Soprani has now added the category Football (soccer) and is slowly migrating subcategories Soccer to this name. Similarly within American football there are lots of subcategories starting with Football.
- Now when I tried to request renaming of subcategories to the current (at that point) standard (i.e. Soccer and American football) that was stopped. Similarly after an new attempt to make the structure uniform (now under the name Association football) that was also stopped. So rather then just stopping the structuring come with useful advice on how you think the situation might best be resolved because if nothing is done this category tree is going to become even more caotic. /Lokal_Profil 22:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I second that. Something must be done and this vote, however few people took part in it, is all that we have at the moment. I think that most people do not have a very strong opinion on the name of the categories, as long as the categories are consistently named. If Siebrand isn't going to add them to User:CommonsDelinker/commands, where can we find an admin who will? --rimshottalk 17:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I was about to process the requests until I saw the massive amount of "soccer this" and "soccer that" categories that need to be moved. To me, they tell of a consensus far greater than what was the result of this voting.
- Hmmm... what would be the result of this poll if I changed my vote to C, A, B? Samulili 17:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The B-A cell would drop to 3 and the A-B cell would rise to 2. Powers 15:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- ...with the same result. --Juiced lemon 20:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There should be a real vote, in which over 20 people would participate, that is announced properly, to decide which name is best. The above listed vote included only 5 voters, and for now there is no solution accepted. Migdejong 17:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right.
- I wanted to vote for E, but after 5 votes we should stop voting, shouldn't we? Rubietje88 17:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I would've voted E, D, C, but I must admit I do not understand the voting process completely. Should we have a new vote, perhaps accounting for the votes previously added? Migdejong 18:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- You don't give grounds to that. If anybody could block any decision for specious reasons, that would lead to a terrible mess, since nobody will care to take part in votings which would be ineffective. --Juiced lemon 19:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, as you can see above, the results were not accepted, due to the fact only 6 voters showed up. If you have more voters you can finally fix this issue. Migdejong 19:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Most decisions are taken and have been taken without any poll. In some cases, the decision is made by a single user, when nobody has opposed. Organize a poll is not mandatory, that is just an easy way to collect opinions from other users who have not taken part in the discussion. There is no rule stating that a minimal participation is requested to valid the result of the poll (this is not an election), and such rule would be currently a nonsense.
- This vote has been accepted, but the decision is not yet fully implemented. A new vote will not change anything to this situation. More, you cannot guess neither the future number of voters, nor the “requested” (by whom?) number.
- Notice that the poll in this page is definitly closed, and that the votes cannot be reused for any purpose. --Juiced lemon 20:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well I'll just have to start another poll then. You seem very dedicated to a poll that is not accepted by anyone, due to low numbers. Remeber there are no rules, whatsoever, for anything. But to change 200+ cats, there needs to be some acceptible compromise or a clear vote. Apparently 6 voters are not enough. 20 should be. Migdejong 20:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Who have told you this poll is not accepted by anyone? The only person who refused to implement the result of the voting? Six voters for only 200 categories is an exceptionnaly high ratio. We have already changed several thousands of categories as a result of a single decision, without poll, with 2 users again a third one. This poll is perfectly valid and its result is lawful. A new poll about the same subject would be very questionable. --Juiced lemon 21:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A You
- Well, what happened to implementatin then? Migdejong 19:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- My guess is that no-one accepted to implement it on User talk:CommonsDelinker/commands leaving this particular category tree almost as bad as before. /Lokal_Profil 02:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Moved to Association football --rimshottalk 11:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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