User talk:Nilfanion/Dartmoor/Tors

Like I've said on the main page this needs to be expanded:

1. Any tors noted in other sources other than the OS maps
2. Any on Dartmoor but outside the national park (whatever that means).
3. Significant hills on Dartmoor, such as Hangingstone, Cut and Ryder's Hills.

All of these are needed. On what constitutes a "significant hill" I think prominence is the most objective criterion, given the generally flat nature of the moors 25m may be sensible (Ugborough Beacon for example has a prominence of ~28m). However, its not perfect due to locations like Shell Top, which is not a summit. As for additional sources: Harveys, Hemerys High Dartmoor, old OS maps and any sources listed at List of Dartmoor tors and hills.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

F'rinstance Eastern Whittabarrow (or Eastern White Barrow - spelling is a whole other issues) I don't think is a "prominence" but is undoubtedly "prominent" :)

I did try adding one but got "ec"! Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 11:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Hehe, was probably adding in your pics ;) Agree on the whole spelling nonsense, however one thing does strike me there - if its a "barrow" is it artificial? If so, I don't think it belongs on this list, but on another list of the historical sites.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough .... but (!) if the "barrow" is on a prominent hill. As with Ugborough Beacon, in that area there is Western Beacon etc. I'm going to add a couple to this list as much to remind me as anything else (Weatherdon & Butterdon). Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 09:12, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we may need 2 distinct lists: one for the tors as in the rocks themselves and one for the hills, irrespective of whether its named "tor", "hill" or anything else. The requirements for pictures are subtly different and complement each other: A view of Yes Tor from near Okehampton gives the scale of the 2000ft hill, but the tor itself would be barely visible, whereas a view from the path linking the tor to High Willhays would give a much better image of the tor, but give you little impression as to the bulk of the hill. But one thing at a time... :)--Nilfanion (talk) 10:51, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - kinda what I was saying about some being "unphotogenic" - some aspects of tors are like that. I've uploaded 2 Rippon ones - one from a distance & one on the tor, mostly folk would not know it was the same place. --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Buckland Beacon

One of those "is it or isn't it" ones? Misnamed to me & looks like a tor, uploading later I hope. --Herby ^{talk thyme} 12:14, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - so to me the only reason this is not a "tor" is that it was used as a beacon & so called that? Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 12:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with you on that one. It is a clearly a tor in the geological sense. As I want to encourage uploads of absolutely everything worthwhile, I've added an "other" section at the base. If you have a picture of something that is a noteworthy tor or hill, upload it and list it there, then we can discuss what other classes of landmarks need a full list (Clearly there are thousands of rocks on the moors, not all of them are necessary). Might be an idea to add that image to the Category:Dartmoor Tors.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:43, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Done - thought I would await other views before deciding.

"Tor" definition?

Anyone? Might at least assist discussion.

Hen Tor for example is a pile of rocks off a ridge whereas Hangershell Rock is a pile of rocks on a ridge :) Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 13:26, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Well according to the WP article "a tor is a rock outcrop formed by weathering, usually found on or near the summit of a hill". Which really narrows things down! I'm inclined to follow the attitude: If it looks like a tor, then it is (probably) a tor geologically. Made a couple changes so the page better reflects that.

Unfortunately, I'm not totally sure if we can generate a "to do" list for the additional ones as what "rocks" are tors? That said I can make a start at it (along with the broader list of hills).--Nilfanion (talk) 21:06, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi all! I have a copy of The A to Z of Dartmoor Tors, revised ed. 1995, by Terry Bound (ISBN 1-899073-27-2), which would seem to be some sort of definitive list. In the preface the author points out that some rock-crowned hills don't have tor in their name, and some named tors don't have any visible outcrops. He says that he classes a tor as "any [his emphasis] outcrop of rock or rocks", and says his aim is to "present a detailed catalogue of all Dartmoor 'tors', whatever their position". He doesn't give his definition of "Dartmoor" though.

Anyway, definitive or not, he does give quite a number that don't yet appear on your list. Just taking the A's and part of the B's, he adds:

• Ashbury Tor (named in Crossing) grid ref: 604940 at 309m. asl.
• Ausewell Rocks 731716 250m.
• Barn Hill Rocks 535746 330m.
• Bee Tor 708844 317m.
• Bee Tor, Little 616771 466m. (file under "L")
• Big Rock (named in Hemery) 527799 (in enclosed wooded land, part of a wall)
• Billy's Tor (Hemery) 569745 450m.
• Black Rock 531855 c.300m. (On right bank of R. Lyd; bears a commemorative plaque to a Captain Hunter)
• Black Tor (named in Samuel Rowe) 655584 c.330m. (A small stack about 250m. S. of the summit of Butterdown Hill)
• Blackalder Tor 568616 234m. (Lee Moor)
• Blackator (named in Gill's Dartmoor: a New Study) 665750 c.300m.
• Blackey Tor (named in Worth's Dartmoor, aka Colden Tor in Crossing) 612737 360m.
• Blackingstone Rock 787856 355m.
• Bonehill Rocks 731774 393m.
• Bowerman's Nose 742804 c.400m.
• ...

I haven't checked these on a map, and apologies if I've wrongly transcribed any of the grid refs. I'm not urging for any of these to be added – well, except for Bowerman's Nose which you *have* to include somewhere :) But maybe another workable definition of a Dartmoor tor might be "any granite outcrop in Devon that has an established name".

Hope this helps. Smalljim (talk) 15:55, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like what we need :) Just relying on the maps is a bad idea if we want something approaching the full list (unfortunately I don't have much here myself to work with). I don't think that definition quite works: "established name" implies a unique name, which clearly isn't true and Devon is probably too vague. The definition of Dartmoor isn't exactly easy either. I think it would be helpful if you could get the list onto the wiki somewhere, with the 6 figure references and a description of location too - at least for the ones not clearly identifiable on modern maps. As for Bowerman's: [1] :)--Nilfanion (talk) 17:12, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Re: definition - I originally wrote "…that has a published name", but changed it because I imagined coming across some website that had "published" a load of spurious names. To me the word "established" doesn't imply "unique", but what about "legitimate", "accepted", "recognised", or "acknowledged" instead? Re: Devon - it's quite safe; if you look at a geological map, Dartmoor encompasses the only area of granite rock in Devon, and so this definition neatly sidesteps having to say exactly what is "Dartmoor", too. By this rule, though, Brent Tor shouldn't be included as it's made of older basalt and is completely different in character. But I don't want to force anything - it was just an idea that popped into my head.

Re: transferring details of the missing tors from the book's 95 pages - hmm, well you did say this is a *long-term* project, right? Thanks for adding Bowerman, BTW: I'd forgotten that photo! —Smalljim (talk) 22:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, there's no rush here :) Its inevitable that the initial list had gaps (the book you have is a very good source, by sounds of it). Things like the definitions will resolve themselves quickly enough.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Sharp Tor

I have a load of pictures of Sharp Tor, but which of the four here is it? It's the one with the double peak and a wind-blown hawthorn on top. It overlooks the dart valley. Should I upload a picture and you guys can guess which one it is? I have no idea about geotagging or map refs, we just went there for the day. Totnesmartin (talk) 16:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Overlooking the Dart - 2nd one down to me (the 380m one). Goetagging we can probably sort but say if you want more info. Thanks & welcome to this :) Cheers --Herby ^{talk thyme} 18:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah it sounds like its that one to me as well. I've added a brief location description to the ambiguously named tors to assist with this situation.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

More on "beacons"

Per this and I agree it should be here somewhere, there is also Ugborough Beacon ((6659 & 378m). Both are beacons in one sense of the word (they have been used as beacons) but equally there are clusters of rocks on their summits....? --Herby ^{talk thyme} 12:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

My opinion on this is: If one person thinks X is worth having a picture of and X falls under the categories of a "prominent high point" or "[natural] rock formation" (or both) on Dartmoor, then it should be included. The reason for the initial list being purely "tors" is simply that it was easier for me to generate that list, not because they are more important. I'll spend some time doing another pass of the maps to get all other prominent points.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:56, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Lowery Tor

Been looking through the OS opendata maps. Lowery Tor is marked on the southern slope of Peek Hill (but not on the 25k and 50k scale maps). Got me wondering how many others we have missed. Ran across this list - looks like its worth checking :)--Nilfanion (talk) 09:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)