User talk:AnandaBliss
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Fraternities and sororities[edit]
Wondering about this. I wouldn't say that a fraternity or sorority is inherently a "secret society". Usually around the world of American colleges and Universities that term is used more for things like Skull and Bones. - Jmabel ! talk 23:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hi User:Jmabel, I was thinking that any group with secret oaths, whether they're actually well-known or not, would be a secret society. I could be wrong here, though. And isn't Skull and Bones a college fraternity of sorts? AnandaBliss (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- No. Something like Skull and Bones is quite distinct from a fraternity. There are enough differences that I can't even give a quick summary, but among them:
- Typically you "rush" a fraternity or sorority as a freshman, and then they choose whether or not they want you; a college and university secret society "taps" its members, usually in the junior year; there is usually no way to actively put yourself forward as a candidate.
- Most fraternities and sororities have a residential facility and a dining hall (though some have a more loosely affiliated "dining club" that outsiders can simply pay to join). I don't think there is much that is analogous for college and university secret societies.
- Almost everything about college and university secret societies is (at least ostensibly) secret. About all that is typically secret about a fraternity or sorority is certain aspects of its initiation rituals.
- Fraternities and sororities typically host a lot of events that are open to the whole student body, if not beyond. I don't think any college or university secret societies do that.
- Most (though not all) fraternities and sororities are, or have been at some point in their history, affiliates of a national organization, and in many cases either the local or national is part of a "pan-Hellenic council" or such; as far as I know, college and university secret societies are all standalones.
- - Jmabel ! talk 03:56, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Interesting, I guess I've always thought of imitation as sufficient to be a "secret society." Greek-letter organizations and Skull & Bones may not be identical, but they still seem like two types of the same category, especially if you don't pre-define secret society to mean "not a fraternity." And the fraternities/sororities are almost completely based on Masonic structure, never quite understood where the Greek letters came from. I'm no expert in the field, so like I said I could be totally wrong. Freemasons, for example, are not invite-only at all (anymore?) and they get pegged as a stereotypical one. Thanks! AnandaBliss (talk) 04:07, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- The Masons, certainly, but no one calls the Elks or Kiwanis a "secret society". - Jmabel ! talk 16:43, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- en:Category:Fraternities and sororities certainly does not have any comparable parent category. - Jmabel ! talk 16:45, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Then again, en:Fraternities and sororities says, "With a few exceptions, most fraternities and sororities are secret societies." So I'll let this stand. - Jmabel ! talk 16:50, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, I'm not married to it either way, it really just crossed my mind as I've been on an esoteric Wiki tear lately. Thanks so much! AnandaBliss (talk) 22:29, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- Interesting, I guess I've always thought of imitation as sufficient to be a "secret society." Greek-letter organizations and Skull & Bones may not be identical, but they still seem like two types of the same category, especially if you don't pre-define secret society to mean "not a fraternity." And the fraternities/sororities are almost completely based on Masonic structure, never quite understood where the Greek letters came from. I'm no expert in the field, so like I said I could be totally wrong. Freemasons, for example, are not invite-only at all (anymore?) and they get pegged as a stereotypical one. Thanks! AnandaBliss (talk) 04:07, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- No. Something like Skull and Bones is quite distinct from a fraternity. There are enough differences that I can't even give a quick summary, but among them:
P.R. categories[edit]
Re: your edit summary "It is not up for discussion what country this place is in." I don't want to edit war, but I can't let something unfactual stand."
Did you know that PR is not in the U.S.? That is a fact which shouldn't be up for discussion but it seems you are under the impression that P.R. should be listed as a state right after Pennsylvania.
The correct way to categorize P.R. things in Commons is “Insular areas of the United States” (or Territories, which in the case of the US is the same), but PR should never be categorized as a U.S. state because it is not. Here are the 3 forms for doing this ("insular area", "dependent territory”, and “location”):
Correct ways:
1.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Transport_in_insular_areas_of_the_United_States
2.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Mountains_by_dependent_territory
3.https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cemeteries_in_the_United_States_by_location
4th is a NO-NO:
4. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Visitor_attractions_in_the_United_States_by_state
I have not checked all of your reverts yet of the PR categories (I think you reverted about 36 PR categories that Mercy11 had done), but the one I did check "category:Mountains of Puerto Rico" was incorrectly placed by you because your then revert and 2nd revert, then placed P.R. (not correctly under an insular area or location or dependent territory of the US) but under the Category:Mountains of the United States by state which is then listed right after Pennsylvania and that is incorrect. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 12:50, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Eloquent, it’s not a state but it is as much a part of the US as Pennsylvania. Where do you get the idea otherwise? Places like DC, PR, etc will have to be listed under the “states” list where they exist or else be excluded from their own country. I think “location” which would include both is ideal, because it’s so insulting to tell people living in territories that they are not where they are. Usually the list has an asterisked section that says territories, etc. Insular areas and territories are a full part of the US, and I will not edit otherwise unless some admin tells me to. I can’t keep reverting because of the edit war rules, but maybe we should take this to a discussion board to avoid a back-and-forth. AnandaBliss (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Eloquent is correct, and categorizing Puerto Rico as state based on some notion that it would be "insulting [to residents of the territories]" if classified otherwise is quite outrageous: Commons doesn't exist to protect users' feelings. It is an undisputed fact that Puerto Rico is not a state of the US, as you are claiming Ananda, and by categorizing it with the rest of the US states we would be subtly claiming it is a state; that would be confusing for users doing searches. That said, the undisputed facts are that Puerto Rico is both a country and an insular area of the US (this last one also know as an "unincorporated territory"), and that the US is both a country and a sovereign state. While I don't mind the continued use of "by location" cats that already exist (like Eloquent's link on Cemeteries above), I wouldn't support creating new "by location" categories when categorizing under insular areas is more precise. Mercy11 (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Listing Puerto Rico as as a country would not be correct, as country is used as shorthand for sovereign locale and Wikimedia's categories follow that definition. That easily causes massive confusion and I'm not sure what a "country" could be in an encyclopedic sense other than that, so a poetic, nationalistic sense isn't going to be a falsifiable fact. It's not a state (yet), I have never claimed so and I would appreciate it if you did not imply that I'm saying something I'm not. However it's 100% a part of the US, as being a state has never been necessary to be a US location. It needs to be in relevant American lists. If separate categories should be made for DC and the territories, that could work but I still see that as a huge problem, separating people from their country. I (and this is just my opinion) think that "US by location" subcategories make at lease some sense, because there is no practical use to separating Washingtonians, Puerto Ricans, etc. from the rest of the US. A mountain is a mountain, a mayor is a mayor, whether they're in a state or territory. The "by state" "by location" "by territory" cats are frankly redundant and all 1st-level locales should be listed under "in the US." When a person's looking up American mountains, they likely don't (and shouldn't, but again just my opinion) have in mind "but just the ones outside of Puerto Rico." AnandaBliss (talk) 01:38, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Eloquent is correct, and categorizing Puerto Rico as state based on some notion that it would be "insulting [to residents of the territories]" if classified otherwise is quite outrageous: Commons doesn't exist to protect users' feelings. It is an undisputed fact that Puerto Rico is not a state of the US, as you are claiming Ananda, and by categorizing it with the rest of the US states we would be subtly claiming it is a state; that would be confusing for users doing searches. That said, the undisputed facts are that Puerto Rico is both a country and an insular area of the US (this last one also know as an "unincorporated territory"), and that the US is both a country and a sovereign state. While I don't mind the continued use of "by location" cats that already exist (like Eloquent's link on Cemeteries above), I wouldn't support creating new "by location" categories when categorizing under insular areas is more precise. Mercy11 (talk) 21:30, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- Look, let's not get into any opinionated discussion. The purpose of Commons categorization is so that users can find related information, in this case, images. No one would ever look for PR under a grouping of the 50 US states, as you have reverted them into, because it is universal knowledge that PR isn't one of the 50 states. Many people, on the other hand, rightfully look for it under "countries" because, whether we agree with it or not, this is how it is often described. If this is news to you, I suggest you do some research. Let's not politicize the Commons categories; being Puerto Rican or Washingtonian has nothing to do with these categories: you are confusing being an American with being an American citizen; there aren't the same thing and they have no place in this discussion. And, no, there's no credible, official, source stating "PR is part of the US". You really need to do some research. Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 02:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- People of Puerto Rico are both Americans and American citizens. I admit to being testy, and for that I apologize. However, there is no credible source saying that Puerto Rico is anything but domestic to the US. I've done adequate research and I don't appreciate the condescension. Puerto Rico is not frequently described as a country, but as a territory. I don't think it should go under "by state" as I've said but "in the US" or "of the US" could not be more accurate. I think that this is a long-standing axis of disagreement and if you don't mind I'd like the open the discussion to others so we can avoid inconsistency or edit wars. AnandaBliss (talk) 02:16, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- Look, let's not get into any opinionated discussion. The purpose of Commons categorization is so that users can find related information, in this case, images. No one would ever look for PR under a grouping of the 50 US states, as you have reverted them into, because it is universal knowledge that PR isn't one of the 50 states. Many people, on the other hand, rightfully look for it under "countries" because, whether we agree with it or not, this is how it is often described. If this is news to you, I suggest you do some research. Let's not politicize the Commons categories; being Puerto Rican or Washingtonian has nothing to do with these categories: you are confusing being an American with being an American citizen; there aren't the same thing and they have no place in this discussion. And, no, there's no credible, official, source stating "PR is part of the US". You really need to do some research. Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 02:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- If you are trying to categorize based on your understanding of politics, you will need to provide actual facts, not opinions. IAE, I am not sure why you chose to revert --twice-- the over 100 edits initially there, most of them mature edits of over several years, and then also revert my revert of your 100+ revert edits even after a discussion on the matter was already open in your talk page herein. The proper action would had been to go here from the get-go. I am also not sure why you chose to revert those over 100 of my edits without, after your 3rd or so revert, asking yourself if what you were doing was truly correct procedurally. Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 03:42, 5 June 2022 (UTC)