Template talk:ProvenanceEvent

auction house

This template is very useful, but I'm suprised by the "at unnkown" parameter in "sales". If it is unknown, how do we know that it was bought at an auction house (there are so many places an artwork can be purchased) ? And how do we know the city of the auction house ? In all the cases I've seen, it seems that the city given is just the place where the seller and buyer live. From what I've seen, we really could remove the parameter: we would have much more readable texts, and nothing really missing (from what I can see in files like File:JohannesVermeer-TheAstronomer(1668).jpg).--Zolo (talk) 21:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

See for example this image. The texts reads "Catalogue of paintings owned by Hendrik Sorgh, sold 28 March 1720 in Amsterdam" and doesn't say exactly where or by whom it was sold. But you're right, "auction" house might be too specific. The parameters "at" and "atunknown" could be merged. Maybe a bot could replace "atunknown" by "at"? Regards, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 22:21, 12 August 2010 (UTC).

Okay, I think a merger is the right solution. By the way, I'm currently doing a list of things that could be done by a bot, if you feel like adding something...--Zolo (talk) 06:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

ok, atunknown is used in 132 files, all paintings, so that should work. If something else comes to mind I'll let you know. Thank you. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 07:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Before you proceed with this, there is one issue that needs to be resolved. If you use at= instead of atunknown= what preposition are you going to use? If you use "at=" and the auction house is known it should say "sale of the collection of such and so at Christie's, London"; if you use "at=" and the auction house is unknown it should say "sale of the collection of such and so in London" or "sale of the collection of such and so at an unknown location, London". Any idea how to deal with this? Regards, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 12:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Right. So probably we could keep (or rename) the parameter and change the text. Maybe introduce a "in" parameter (in for the ciy, at for the auction house, but no need to change the at in the existing files, just turn the atunknown into in). As to how it should be rendered, "sale of the collection of such and so in London" would avoid potential problems in automatic preposition translation. However, I think it sounds a bit strange, since London is after all a location (what we don't know is rather who organised the transaction). "At the sale of the collection of Mr X (London)" can be ambiguous (Does Mr X come from London or was the collection sold in London?). So personnally, I'd rather go for "at the sale of the collection of such and so in London" (Nonetheless, it's quite simple to adapt the template so that it displays a coma when we add the at parameter (so that {{ProvenanceEvent|Toto|by=Christie's|in=London}} appears at "sale of the collection of such and so at Christie's, London".

Since in most cases, what is in the atunknown parameter is the name of a big city, the translation problem should not be that bad (I think that least for most languages the preposition is the same for most cities).

Another thing, while we are at it: can I remove the "(auction house)" from the at parameter, since in this case too, it is not necessarily an auction house, and it is generally is quite clear that the name is either that of an auction house or an art dealer, and we can always add write additionnal info if need be.--Zolo (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

yes, that's a good idea. Maybe there's a way that when the "by" and "in" parameters are filled out the output is "at Christie's, London" and when only the "in" parameter is filled out the output is "in London"? Yes, the "(auction house)" can be removed. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 17:48, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it only calls for a simple "if:". I try that now.

just wondering

Is there any need to have "ceded to the Rijksmuseum Asmsterdam, Amsterdam (her for instance) rather than just "to the Rijksmuseum Amsterdam", or is it simply a side-effect of using templates ?--Zolo (talk) 12:15, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

yes, IMO there is. "Rijksmuseum Amsterdam" is the official name of the museum. This name is used to distinguish it from other Dutch Rijksmuseums, such as the Rijksmuseum Twenthe in Enschede. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I understand that it is better to write "Rijksmuseum Amsterdam" than Rijksmuseum", my question would rather be with the second "Amsterdam". I think that even people who have never heard of the museum can guess that the Rijksmuseum Amsterdam is in Amsterdam (though it could be one of the the many oddities of this world) Perhaps it is customary to write the name of the city, but it looks a bit strange. --Zolo (talk) 15:46, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I can imagine it looks a bit strange. Like "New York, New York", but it's just a format. If you say "National Gallery, London", it should also be "Rijksmuseum Amsterdam, Amsterdam" or "Philadelphia Museum of Art, Philadelphia", etc. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Marsupium (talk) 10:19, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Additional events

One thing the template omisses so far is how the object appeared in the first place. Things like "unearthed in an excavation at X", "found by a farmer plowing his field/a peat cutter/a construction worker at X", "discovered at a flea market/garage sale/bulk waste at X", "discovered as a uncatalogued object in archive X/museum Y/library Z" etc. pp. Any other types we should cover? Any ideas how to implement this in the best way? --Slomox (talk) 10:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

There is a "discovered" option. Since the most common case excavation, a "excavation" parameter could probably be added there. For other cases, there can be so many of them that I am not sure there is any convincing solution. We can probably create a parameter "other" inside discovered, but translation would still require to add a manual langSwitch for each artwork.--Zolo (talk) 11:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I see. "discovered" is not in the documentation. There are indeed uncountable possible cases. But let's collect some of the more common cases and let's look which of them we can add so we reach a good coverage without catering for every single isolated case. --Slomox (talk) 12:15, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I've added a "through" (don't know how to call it) option in the "discovered" Event. {{provenanceEvent|type=discovered|through=excavation|newowner=Tutu|place={{NYC}}}} yields: "discovered during excavations. Place: New York City. Organiser: Tutu." Would that be okay ? I could not think of any other type of event worthy of being added (or should I add "discovered by chance" ?)--Zolo (talk) 10:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Restoration

Should restoration be included in the list of events ? That's not really "provenance" but it is part of the object history, so I think it could fit here.--Zolo (talk) 10:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

@Zolo: 5 years later ... What kind of restoration do you mean? a) Cleaning/repairing an object or b) Giving back a war trophy to the original owner? For the object File:Köln 1914 - Ausstellung im Kölnischen Stadtmuseum-2543.jpg I need b) because the object will be given back to France soon. Raymond 18:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Raymond: I think I meant a) but both could probably be useful. That said, this template is rather messy and should perhaps first be rewritten in Lua, and eventually fetch the data from Wikidata (I don't know what the planning is for enabling that on Commons). --Zolo (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Grammar

It is quite difficult to have correct grammar with this template. One solution to obviate the problem is to add small words with langSwitch so that we get "obtained by the Louvre" in English and "acquis par le Louvre" in French rather than "obtained by Louvre". However it cannot be done with too many languagse and it is not very easy to maintain. An alternative solution is to add a grammatical option in other templates, as I did for {{Académie Royale de Peinture, Sculpture et Architecture}}. It works in File:Boucher renaud et armide louvre.jpg but it is certainly far from optimal. Is it worth trying to create something like {{Nagging grammar problems solver}} ?--Zolo (talk) 11:14, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The most promising solution seems to be to make the entries less sentence-ish and more data-ish. If you put a colon there's no need for an article "1900. obtained by: Louvre". --Slomox (talk) 12:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

That seems sensible. However, I think that "obtained by: Louvre" without an article still seems rather strange (and even more so in French "acquis par: Louvre")--Zolo (talk) 20:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

But it's impossible to provide for all possible cases. At {{Académie Royale de Peinture, Sculpture et Architecture}} you separated 'subject' and 'agent'. What about dative and accusative? They need different forms in German. We cannot create arrays of article forms for all the different museums, galleries, academies etc. We need to find a way to make it work with the plain basic form. --Slomox (talk) 23:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes I know, there are many other forms in many languages (and in languages like Russian and Lithuanian I guess it is still far worse). That's why I mentionned the idea of a special grammar template: it could provide declensions and things like that. But true, that would be long and tricky, and the result would probably not be very useful.--Zolo (talk) 07:51, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

What would the grammar template do? A sentence that requires accusative in German may require a different grammatical case in another language. --Slomox (talk) 08:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know exactly how it could work. What I had in mind was say, write on the Louvre template that "Louvre" is singular and masculine in German, add the standard declension of German on the Grammar template and write something like "entdeckt {{#if: {{{newowner|}}} | von {{grammar |{{{newowner|case=dative}}}}} }}" in template ProvenanceEvent. This way {{provenanceEvent|type=discovered|newowner=Louvre}} would display as "entdeckt von dem Louvre" rather "entdeckt von: Louvre" not perfect but a bit better I think. I did something like that at {{Technique/de}}. It seems to work quite well, but it was much easier because there was only a limited list of available words, and only two cases (nominative and dative).--Zolo (talk) 08:54, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I cannot see how we could build something that would work for every language (feel free to prove me prove wrong though :-), so I guess I'm with Slomox on that one : using colons, semi-colons, or even putting all of this in an array, would certainly be way simpler and read less awkward. Jean-Fred (talk) 20:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Well everything considered I also think your solution is the only one that has a chance to work reasonably well. So maybe we should change the templates but there are quite many pages that have been adapted to avoid grammar mistakes. I hope that changing the template will not cause too many grammar problems for them. I do not think it will cause enormous problems but we may get quite a few weird things like "déposé à: aux archives de Toulouse".--Zolo (talk) 21:41, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I have changed to "deposited à : newowner" and "transfert à newowner", since it seems more maintainable.--Zolo (talk) 15:46, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we could italicize parameters, personnally I feel somehow more indulgent to grammatical oddities like "transféré à : Musée du Louvre" than "transféré à : Musée du Louvre"

Another type of event ?

Hello folks, I came across works whose documentation state (in French) « déposé aux Archives » (I am not so sure how that translates in English ; probably something between "given" , "deposit" and "donated" — my dictionary gives as an example « ses œuvres seront déposées au musée de la ville » <--> «his/her works will be put into the local museum »).

Is that different enough from the "gift" parameter (which gives "ceded") to warrant a dedicated parameter ? Jean-Fred (talk) 11:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

To me, deposit means loan. At least deposited by the Louvre at the museum of Tarnadeuc, means lent by the Louvre to the museum of Tarnadec. But since there are cases, like the one you mentionned, where it may mean something else, I think the safest solution would be to add a new parameter, not to mention the fact that lent to the archives may look a bit strange.--Zolo (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Seems that 'déposé' is a very specific term in the Archives vocabulary, warranting a new parameter. But this really is a nightmare from a grammar point of view. Jean-Fred (talk) 20:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Another type of event ? (2)

What can I choose when the artwork has been destroyed, e.g. in a war? Greetz! Bukk (talk) 17:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

User "destruction" type, that already exists (though it has yet to be docuemented and some parameters like place could perhaps be added).--Zolo (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Through

Is it possible to add a new parameter, 'through'? Often museums buy an artwork through a financial donation or bequest, or through a third party such as a friends of the museum, or a public charity such as the British Art Fund. We already have 'donation' and 'bequest' parameters, but I understand they are for donated or bequeathed artworks. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 13:59, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

There is already a "through" parameter for "purchase" and "acquisition", however, but it should probably be upgraded to translate "financial donation as well". This template has grown rather complicated, while retaining it original structure. As a result, maintenance is not perfect and some info get lost in tranlation. I think we should try to reorganize it to make it more scalable and easier to document. But I am still unsure where to start. --Zolo (talk) 09:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I forgot to say thanks: this what I was looking for. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 08:48, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Effect when parameter "type" is left empty

Hi, I've obeserved several files with ProvenanceEvent template that displayed the date of the ProvenanceEvent only, e.g. this. The author had provided the newowner's name as well, but that wasn't displayed. I wonder if that's correct? Greetz! Bukk (talk) 10:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I have changed the template so that it displays new owner even without type (I do not think it is often used this way, but I agree it makes sense). It may well be that it was there and I broke it at some point. --Zolo (talk) 09:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Thx! Seems to work correctly. Greetz! Bukk (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. Marsupium (talk) 10:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Another type parameter (3)

Is it possible to add another type parameter, viz. 'collection'? This is specific to tribal/primitive art. Objects aren't excavated or discovered; they're 'collected' and go to a Western museum. I suppose this a polite way of saying 'taken/bought from the people using it'. I suppose the syntax is similar to that of the 'purchase' type, so I hope it won't be a bother. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 08:48, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Seeing as nobody objected, I added the new parameter. I'd like to suggest another one for dations in payment, i.e. the transfer of the artwork as a payment in lieu of taxes. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 11:40, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good, thanks. --Zolo (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Types auction and sale

Is there any categorical difference between the things meant with “auction” and “sale”? Couldn't they perhaps be merged? I am dealing with this sale (or auction?) within a Template:Artwork for this file and cannot select between the two types since I don't see the difference. In thanks for help, --Marsupium (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

"Sale" is when you talk to the artist or owner, agree on price, and buy it. Auction is type of sale where price is established based on bids from several potential buyers. --Jarekt (talk) 03:45, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, I was looking for a categorial difference between the two types. An auction may be a special form of a sale and I naturally see a difference between the two words though eg. Christie's seems to use them synonymously (cf. this). The question is whether the two types of this template make sense. They share the same parameters exept from the additional {{{newowner}}}, {{{lotno}}}, {{{result}}} and {{{for}}} for the sale type. {{{result}}} and especially {{{lotno}}} are features rather of auctions than of sales as described by you to my mind. And the {{{newowner}}} and {{{for}}} parameters belong to an auction as much as to a sale if I unterstand them well (which might be hard due to the missing documentation). Thus adding these parameters to the auction type would create two equal types which are not necessary together I think. Best regards, --Marsupium (talk) 04:19, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Ten years after. Marsupium never got an answer to this. The auction event is still too rudimentary, especially lacking a lotno. The explanation given, that the sale event is more like a direct sale, does not explain why the lot number should be a parameter there, and not in the auction type. So why is it missing in the auction type? Cheers --Rsteen (talk) 11:36, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for replying! I had totally forgotten about this. Yes, let’s please add the parameters appropriately. I can do it when I’m on a computer with a keyboard soonish hopefully in case I don’t forget. But if someone feels like taking care of it before I’ll be glad as well! Best, --Marsupium (talk) 16:04, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good, Marsupium. The ProvenanceEvent template is ideally a nice structured way to incorporate multilingual features into Commons. If it ever finds a way to connect to Wikidata, it will be even more useful. Cheers --Rsteen (talk) 03:47, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Where can I add at nationalization: de vom Französischen Staat

--Oursana (talk) 13:20, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if that is what you mean, but you can write {{ProvenanceEvent|type=nationalization|newowner={{French State}}}} -> nationalized by Template:French State
. If you want to get the declension right, you can also write <code>{{ProvenanceEvent|type=nationalization|newowner={{LangSwitch|de=Französichen Staat|default={{French State}}}}}} -> nationalized by Template:French State
but that does not seem a very maintainable solution. --Zolo (talk) 17:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Zolo, I made a mistake, I forgot that I just have to use the code.--Oursana (talk) 22:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Where can I/you change anonymous sale, output

de:at an dutch anonymen ..(2x) Regards --Oursana (talk) 01:23, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

@Vincent Steenberg:Thank you. Sorry. perhaps I coulnt'handle the brackets.--Oursana (talk) 09:50, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

ok, no problem. I hope it's solved now. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 10:57, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

perfectly. Don't we need ….as (artist name) also with simple sale/purchase see e.g., which I had to do add individually without translation--Oursana (talk) 12:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

currently for sale?

How would you describe a painting that is currently offered for sale at a gallery? If I use type=purchased then the result is that the painting was purchased, which it has not been.

Also, I have a couple of auctions where the painting was unsold. Therefore the "newowner" parameter was empty. The "oldowner" parameter was not empty, but it doesn't display. Laura1822 (talk) 00:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

ceded vs. given?

For the English translation, why was the word "ceded" chosen instead of "given" for gifts? "Ceded" implies relinquishment, possibly under protest or duress, or perhaps in exchange for something (treaties between sovereign nations might cede a disputed piece of land). It might be appropriate for modern usage where something is "granted in lieu of tax" (as I think the phrase is). Gifts, on the other hand, are freely given at the instigation of the giver, as are bequests under a will. There is a big difference between freely giving something and having something taken from you, even if you agree to the latter.

I've never seen the word "ceded" used in this context outside of Commons. Is this the latest academic language, or is there some template-y reason for using it?

Would anyone object if I changed the language in the English translation to "given to" or "gift of" or something else appropriate? Laura1822 (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

 Done --Jarekt (talk) 19:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

"in collection of" type

I need a type indicating where a particular piece was on a particular date when no other info is known. For example, in a catalogue raisonne of a particular artist, the entry for the painting in the book gives only the owner's name with no other provenance for this specific painting. Therefore, I only know the painting's owner in the year the book was published. I don't know where he got it. This might coordinate with my request above for a way to indicate that a painting was offered for sale in a gallery, whether or not it is current or was never sold.

 Done. Try {{ProvenanceEvent |type=in collection |date=1999 |owner=john Doe }} -> "1999: in collection of john Doe
" --Jarekt (talk) 19:37, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

This is great, thank you! the |place= parameter isn't showing in the output, though.

What a lot of hard work you do, thank you so much! Laura1822 (talk) 16:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, |owner= doesn't seem to work, have to use |newowner= . Laura1822 (talk) 15:18, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

You could also use "by", maybe that's a easier. So when a piece is mentioned in the collection of such and so, you could also say {{ProvenanceEvent|date={{Other date|by|1999}}|newowner=John Doe, {{London}}}} or simply {{Other date|by|1999}}: John Doe, {{London}}. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 16:19, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Good idea, thanks!Laura1822 (talk) 15:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I also need a price parameter in the "commissioned" type. Laura1822 (talk) 17:03, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

 Done for most languages. Although my Hungarian, Italian, Romania and Northern Lower Saxon are not what they could have been. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 20:33, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

offered for sale?

How would you massage this into the template?

2013 or before: Offered for sale at Richard Green Gallery, London; unsold as of 10 Dec 2013; removed from online catalogue by 21 August 2014.

No firm dates (those given are the dates I just happened to look), unknown whether sold, unknown whether owned by the dealer or offered on commission, etc. Auction houses sometimes list these as "with," e.g., "with Richard Green Gallery, 2013." Help? Laura1822 (talk) 21:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

That's a hard one. And it's not an auction? My best guess would be:

{{ProvenanceEvent|time={{Other date|by|2013-12-10}}|newowner=Richard Green Gallery, {{London}}}}

That is, if the work was owned by the Richard Green Gallery. If not, this information might not be relevant. However, in the last case you could still add a comment, for example:

{{ProvenanceEvent|time={{Other date|by|2013-12-10}}|newowner=N.N.|comment=offered for sale at Richard Green Gallery, London, 2013 or earlier; unsold as of 10 Dec 2013; removed from online catalogue by 21 August 2014}}

Vincent Steenberg (talk) 20:21, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Hungarian translation of beqeust

The Hungarian translation of bequest doesn't seem correct. A bequest is not an inheritance. Could somebody have a look at this. Thanks. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 16:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Place for more types

Could anybody add the place parameter in the rendering of the missing types? It is also useful to indicate the place where something was acquired for example. ({{ProvenanceEvent|time=1881|type=acquisition|place=Seville}} does only render to "1881: acquired by
" on File:Our Lady of Sorrows (Mater Dolorosa) by Pedro Roldan, Seville, c. 1670-1675, poplar wood - Bode-Museum - DSC02966.JPG.)
Thanks a lot in advance, --Marsupium (talk) 09:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Acceptance in lieu

Hello, and congratulations for this enormously useful template.

would it be possible to add Acceptance in lieu for the type of event? Rama (talk) 17:49, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Add "result" to "auction"!?

"result" parameter would also be useful for "auction" type I think, an example is the 1999 auction at File:Christian Mølsted - Morgen efter stormen på København - 1919.png. Thanks for any comments or work on this! --Marsupium (talk) 12:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)