Template talk:ACClicense

Since months I am trying to categorize and to order the ancient Chinese characters. Until now, I made more than 3000 files, and thought to maintain in near future the 1700 still uncategorized. There are also more than 7000 still missing their needed specification. Every file oughts to be treated manually, it is a very labourous and tedious work which needs much time. Unfortunately I got an unsolvable dispute with User:Wargaz about the use and meaning of the parameter "strokes"; he insists in using it in a way where I suppose the new parameter "draw" is the only correct one. Since he always adds more files parametrized with his understanding, I can never come to an end with that tedious work. So I stop now trying to make things better, and let him continue whatever he wants. -- sarang♥사랑 17:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

But the above does not include to tolerate silently when Wargaz falsifies and mutilates the template!
The edit of User:Wargaz from 2020-March-19 is wrong: when there is no parameter "draw" nothing should be shown, and not the value of "strokes" as a complete nonsense.
The only possible and correct way to solve that problem is to maintain all files in Category:Commons:Maint:ACC:Drawn.
But it won't help to assign against all knowledge wrong parameters when the parameter in need is not specified! -- sarang♥사랑 07:38, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Pri.	Type	Minimal definition	Dominant objective	Time period	Old convention	New convention	Example	Coverage
Images showing writing styles
••	金文 jīnwén>Shang	Casted bronze scripts, Shang period		1300 BCE – 1046 BCE	馬-s.svg	馬-bronze-shang.svg		210
••••	甲骨文 jiǎgǔwén	Knife carved oracle scripts		1300 BCE – 1046 BCE	馬-oracle.svg	馬-oracle.svg		4,836
•	甲骨文 jiǎgǔwén>Western Zhou	Knife carved oracle scripts, Western Zhou period		1046 BCE – 771 BCE	—	馬-oracle-zhouyuan.svg	N/A	13
••••	金文 jīnwén	Casted bronze scripts, Western Zhou period		1046 BCE – 771 BCE	馬-bronze.svg	馬-bronze.svg		1,432
••	金文 jīnwén>Spring and Autumn	Casted bronze scripts, Spring and Autumn period		771 BCE – 476 BCE	馬-sa.svg	馬-bronze-spring.svg		374
••	金文 jīnwén>Warring States	Casted bronze scripts, Warring States period		476 BCE – 221 BCE	馬-w.svg	馬-bronze-warring.svg		318
•••	簡帛文字 jiǎnbówénzì	Brush on slip or silk scripts by Chu state		476 BCE – 221 BCE	—	馬-silk.svg		220 + 63
•••	簡牘文字 jiǎndúwénzì	Brush on slip scripts by Qin state		476 BCE – 221 BCE	—	馬-slip.svg		258
•	傳抄古文字 Chuánchāo gǔwénzì	Transcribed various ancient Guwen scripts before Qin dynasty, collected by Hanjian		—	—	馬-hanjian.svg		7
•	傳抄古文字 Chuánchāo gǔwénzì	Transcribed various ancient Guwen scripts before Qin dynasty, collected by Sishengyun		—	—	馬-GWSSY.svg		7
•	傳抄古文字 Chuánchāo gǔwénzì	Transcribed various ancient Guwen scripts before Qin dynasty, collected by Jizhuan Yunhai		—	—	馬-JZGWYH.svg		12
•	傳抄古文字 Chuánchāo gǔwénzì	Transcribed ancient Guwen big seal script before Qin dynasty, collected by Liushutong		221 BCE – 1644 CE	馬-bigseal.svg	馬-bigseal.svg		3,628
••	隸書 / 隶书 lìshū	Early ancient clerical script to be specific, collected by Libian		221 BCE – 134 BCE	—	馬-clerical.svg		29
••	隸書 / 隶书 lìshū	[Temporary category under discussion] Early ancient clerical script to be specific, collected by Libian	historical	221 BCE – 134 BCE (actual)	—	馬-clerical-han.svg		51
••	隸書 / 隶书 lìshū	[Temporary category under discussion] Modern stylisation of early ancient clerical script	teaching	221 BCE – 134 BCE (fake)	—	馬-clerical-qing.svg		36
•	奇字 qízì	Similar to variants, collected by Shuowen		221 BCE – 220 CE	—	馬-odd.svg	N/A	2
••	古文 gǔwén	Script from Zuo zhuan by Warring States, collected by Shuowen		221 BCE – 220 CE	馬-ancient.svg	馬-ancient.svg		100
••	籀文 zhòuwén	Script from Shizhoupian by late Western Zhou, collected by Shuowen		221 BCE – 220 CE	馬-zhou.svg	馬-zhou.svg		16
••••	篆 > 小篆 xiǎo zhuàn	Normalized zhuan scripts by Qin dynasty and some Han dynasty zhuan scripts, collected by Shuowen		221 BCE – 220 CE	馬-seal.svg	馬-seal.svg		3,276
New Modern Chinese Characters **
••	草書 / 草书 cǎoshū	Brush on paper's fast script, aka Cursive.	teaching	43 BCE – present	— (font available)	馬-caoshu.svg		1
••	行書 / 行书 xíngshū	Brush on paper's fluid writing, aka Semi-cursive.	teaching	ca. 100 CE – present	— (font available)	馬-xingshu.svg		3
••	楷書 / 楷书 kǎishū	Brush on paper since Han dynasty, aka Regular scripts	teaching	ca. 200 CE – present	— (font available)	馬-kaishu.svg		10
••	宋體 / 宋体 sòngtǐ, 明體 / 明体 míngtǐ	Printing-blocks scripts. Aka Songti, Mingti.	teaching	1368 CE – present	— (font available)	馬-songti.svg		4
•	明體 / 明体 míngtǐ > 康熙 kāngxī	Printing-blocks scripts in Kangxi dictionary	historical	1716 CE – present	— (font available)	馬-mingti-kangxi.svg		215
Images showing stroke order
•	楷書 / 楷书 kǎishū	Animated by stroke	teaching	web era	馬-sbs.gif	馬-sbs.gif **		4
••	楷書 / 楷书 kǎishū	Black to red progression	teaching	web era	馬-red.png	馬-[tj]red.svg **		247 + 17 + 28
••	黑體 / 黑体 hēitǐ	Animated with directional arrows, on hēitǐ (Sans-serif) characters	teaching	web era	—	馬-[tj]order (Sans-serif).gif **		12 + 0 + 0
••••	楷書 / 楷书 kǎishū	Animated calligraphy	teaching	web era	馬-order.gif	馬-[tj]order.gif **		591 + 7 + 27
••••	楷書 / 楷书 kǎishū	Row of grey to black chars with directional hints	teaching	web era	馬-bw.png	馬-[tj]bw.svg **		1,066 + 10 + 102
** Do not use “m”, “t”, or “j” freely in filenames above. We use them such: “m” for modern, “t” for traditional, “j” for Japanese, etc. ed

NEW! On dominant objective

• Styles are artificial groupings along a spectrum of writings. Outside Wikimedia, each style actually gather endless variations by its writers.
• Two opposite objectives are therefor possible on that spectrum:
  • historical accurate: documents the exact glyph as done by the writers of that time. Various glyph representations of a same character may be uploaded. This is what history, calligraphy enthusiasts, academics look for.
  • teaching principles: represents the implicitly agreed, canonical, idealized, shape-simplified, smoothed principle of a style. This is what fonts do and propagate, and what teachers looks for.
• ACC categories are on this spectrum. Those who do and upload, decide where their category stands.

Template:SOlicense

Functions need to find automatically the kind of file (bw/red/order) and the country (/t/j) (see here)

Funtion	Wished	Explanations	Currently
{{PAGENAME}}	的-jbw.png	Nom de la page sans l'espace de noms	ACClicense
From here, I take the exemple of 的-jbw.png. In ACClicense and SOlicense templates, 的-jbw.png will be replaced by {{PAGENAME}}.
{{#sub:的-jbw.png|0|1}}	的	fonction peu claire : caractères 1 de la chaîne ?	Template:Sub:的-jbw.png
{{#replace:的-jbw.png|jbw.png|japanese }}	«japanese »	Remplace une sous-chaîne de caractères par une autre	Template:Replace:的-jbw.png
{{#explode:的-jbw.png|-|1}}	jbw.png	Découpe une chaîne de caractères par « - » , et renvoit le énième morceau	Template:Explode:的-jbw.png
{{#urlencode:的}}	%E7%9A%84	Encode du lisible into du code	%E7%9A%84

2018 revamp

Lead by Wargaz, assisted by Yug. Focus :

• handle and align with the 2017's scope expansion, see Template:Chinese_characters_naming
• provide cleaner information to visitors
• more accurate data
• better categorization and "non" categorization (when data is missing)
• easier template maintenance

Yug (talk) 11:27, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

The "cat" of ACClicense

(moved from user talk page)

Hello. The "strokes" of ACClicense was designed to count the strokes of each specific ancient script character. It's kind of meaningless to me if we add Modern script characters' constant number of strokes to variants of ACC. For example, there is no way for 冎-bronze-shang.svg to have 4 strokes. The output of the template was 6 which is still impossible, because bronze scripts need to cast a model first and it would take one step by one step to finish a polyline. Therefore, I don't know where I did wrong on my estimation of 9 on that one. I also don't know how many files did you change, and can we still count the strokes like the old way? What do you think? --Wargaz (talk) 13:23, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi Wargaz, I am glad that this problem can now be discussed. As I wrote, the number of strokes (to take it exactly, the number of the additional strokes for modern characters) is an essential criterion in the description for each character; it is also a categorizing and sorting property for each character, whether ancient or modern. While the radical number plus that of the additional strokes is very important, the information of how many strokes are needed to draw an ancient character is nice_to_have but not of that importance. I understood well that you like to tell the number of strokes how an ancient character can be written. I thought about the solution to take another special parameter specifying this count; may be with the default value "0" as it is often currently. Unfortunately more than 5000 ancient characters had neither been SVG validated nor categorized. To do this, each character image needs to be checked manually, there is no tool available like e.g. VFC.

How about that mentioned additional parameter for the ancient count? I can maintain it in future, i.e. provide it with the number if there is any. I can as well go once more over the ~ 2000 characters I had edited. Is that a solution you can agree? -- sarang♥사랑 13:59, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree, though I still confuse about one thing. Why we need to count the number of strokes of modern characters in each ancient characters' file pages again? I don't quite understand this part. It's easy to find out the MCC's number of strokes in many versions of Wiktionary and Category:<the specific character> on Commons. So it's a redundant work to me, and I hope you tell me why it's necessary. Otherwise, I would suggest that ACClicense only has one parameter for the ancient count. If someone has to do this manually, it can be me. I tried and I am still trying to empty Category:ACC needing time period. It used to be more than two thousand in the category, but now it's only one half. Within the process, I also added the strokes count for each files I edited. Surely It would take time to edit 5087 and 2425 files, but we can finish them by time if forerunners also uploaded them manually. Please tell me your thoughts on the strokes count. --Wargaz (talk) 02:54, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

ACClicense, transcluded 15898 times, specifies for each ancient character the character subcategory, which is a modern character defined by radical number, additional strokes and Unicode hex number.
The problem to me is that ACClicense generates categorizings to non-existing (sub-)categories. I expanded ACClicense that it collects all files with missing subcategories to one maintenance category Commons:Maint:ACClicense; it held more than 5000 entries, currently it comprises 2896; the first seven entries are now (07:23, 6 April 2019 (UTC))

character	subcat	radical category	subcat definition	comments
廩-bigseal.svg 廩-seal.svg	廩	{{Rcat|廰|53|13}}	{{CJK category|53|13|U+5EE9}}	only two entries: no subcategory
廳-oracle.svg	廳	{{Rcat|廰|53|17}}	{{CJK category|53|17|U+5EF0}}	only one entry: no subcategory
廳-bronze-shang.svg	廳	{{Rcat|廳|53|22}}	{{CJK category|53|22|U+5EF3}}	only one entry: no subcategory
弇-bigseal.svg 弇-seal.svg 弇-silk.svg	弇	{{Rcat|弇|55|6}}	{{CJK category|55|6|U+5F07}}	more than two entries: I defined the 弇 subcategory

During the last ten years, I developed and defined for Chinese radicals this system of 214 main categories and all the subcategories, which allows to categorize and to retrieve each Chinese character, ancient or modern. Because it would not be useful to flood e.g. Category:Radical 053 with a lot subcategories of only one (or two) entries, I specify categories only when there are more than two entries; this seems a good strategy. The Template:Rcat (also used by ACClicense) categorizes into the main category Radical 053 when the subcategory e.g. Category:廳 does not exist; in that case it also generates a box (between information and license) telling character, radical number and stroke number but not the Unicode number. The subcategory will be defined manually with CJK category, which creates another box.

This way I am trying to solve the problem of the non-existing categories, either by defining them, or by avoiding their need. When a subcategory becomes later defined, Rcat automatically (or with an empty edit-save) changes to that category. In addition, ACClicense can perform the W3C validation which is necessary for all SVG.
Now to your stroke count: Sorry that I abused the stroke parameter for the stroke count. It will not be difficult to use an additional optional parameter to tell the number of strokes for drawing (how about the parameter draw= ?) and to use only that value (or zero) for ×-stroke ancient Chinese characters (when not Liushutong). When I continue, I can support that parameter in future. Also the reparation can be done, later. Kind regards, -- sarang♥사랑 07:23, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for you effort. I admit that your way is the best solution for now. I'm looking forward for the new draw parameter in the future. By the way, I have to remind that some categories are placeholders which means they could have more files in the future when ACC project finished. Such as Category:廳 still has 23 oracle scripts and two stroke-order GIF files not uploaded, so there are still many spaces to be filled. I don't really agree that Kangxi 214 radials is good way to categorize ancient characters, but we can try it if you already payed a lot of efforts to develop it in Commons. Personally, even Shuowen 540 radials isn't the best way, but many modern publications on ancient characters use it. (In this case, maybe Shuowen 540 radials is better than Kangxi 214 radials on categorizing ACCs, just saying.) --Wargaz (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

The 514 Shuowen do not have such a category system as the 214 Kangxi have; therefore the 514 are categorized (wherever possible) into the system of the 214 - instead of opposite, which had been also a possibility. AFAIK the 214 system is most widespread, and more or less also suitable for AC.

To enable maintenance, I established a new category, Commons:Maint:ACC:NoDraw which contains all ~2000 files that I had edited, with the possibility that the "stroke" value had been changed; in the edit history can be seen whether the previous "stroke" value should be transferred to the "draw" parameter. As soon as that is done, the files will no longer categorize to that maintenance cat.

All my new edits will transfer the value from "stroke" to "draw", no matter whether it is specified or empty. For checking purposes, there is also a category Commons:Maint:ACC:Liu containing my edits with no need to maintain. -- sarang♥사랑 09:54, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Draw for ACC license

(moved from user talk page)

It's for how many strokes to draw the ancient character the file presents rather than the corresponding modern character. Please stop changing it to the modern character's strokes. That information is all known in every dictionaries, and you are making the Ancient characters' stroke count invalid. Wargaz (talk) 19:11, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

{{ping|Wargaz}} the ancient stroke count can be specified with the parameter "draw"; the modern stroke count is needed for the proper categorization and categorization sort. Even when you do not like it, it's a necessary information (while the ancient count doesn't seem to be) -- sarang♥사랑 13:02, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

{{ping|Sarang}} I still see no point that modern stroke count could be a necessary information. You do realize that that information is aviailble on English Wiktionary, Unihan Database and every online and offline Chinese character dictionaries, right? So, what's the meaning on categorizing ancient Chinese character vectors based on their modern character stroke count? However, counting their ancient draw steps is not availiable on other sites, it has comparison and research purpose. How that is less necessary that all well-known modern character count? --Wargaz (talk)

As I tried to tell you often, it's for categorization and categorization sort. It is the only way to get it into order when there does not exist a category for that character, which is missing in many thousand cases. But from now on you may make it as you like, I won't care any more for the ancient characters -- sarang♥사랑 08:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)