File talk:Flag of Virginia.svg

Flag of Virginia with transparent background

In case this may be of use: File:Flag of Virginia with Transparent Background.svg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mehmetaergun (talk • contribs) 18:17, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

1998 version

Here is a version of the flag from 1998, it has a gray helmet on it. Leads me to believe that the grey helmet is more "authentic" so to speak. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 09:08, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

My research so far has led me to believe that the Amazonian warrior's helmet is intended to be a cap with a red plume on top, but that sometime in the mid-20th century, probably to save on ink, both parts of her helmet got colored with the same baby blue as her toga, and that lazy mistake has been perpetuated for decades. Same with the tyrant's breastplate and clothes getting colored one solid purple. So I assume the version that this user on fotw.us, Mario Fabretto, who made a lot of low-quality flags on that website in the 1990s, saw in 1998 and based his image on was colored that way. Likewise with the Xrmap SVG from circa 2005. So I disagree that those versions should be "authentic" and given additional value because I question their sourcing and what research they did before picking colors. Anyway fotw was like a Wiki before Wikis were a thing, so I think it probably falls under en:WP:WPNOTRS in terms of usefulness as a source.

I want to rely on good sources, but several very official websites use the Xrmap version they clearly stole from Wikipedia. Even the flag flying outside the capitol isn't consistent; in 2019 it had a tiny black circle (like it came from Wikipedia) and in 2018 it had a much thicker one and the seal was significantly smaller. So what to do with an inconsistent state that regularly uses a flag/seal with lazy mistakes in it? I might start by saying that the seal that LadyofHats (talk · contribs), Nux (talk · contribs), and I collaborated on follows the law regarding what it should look like. Unfortunately, the description that legislators came up with in 1903, which was copy/pasted into law in 1950, doesn't specify the colors to use for the female figure, other than "dressed as an Amazon."

I would love to see the version that the legislators were looking at in 1903 or 1950. That to me would be the optimal reference point, because it seems like we're missing some link between the Civil War era flags and the ones flying outside schools and car dealerships today. I do think though that, if the design follows the law, then it's not "wrong," and I might point to the recent mess that South Carolina found itself in when trying to standardize the palmetto tree on their flag, which they had a legal description of but no official template. Maybe I could sue the Commonwealth of Virginia, get them to agree in court that their colors are lazy and should be fixed, but for now, I recommend Wikipedia try to use the best version it can. -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 15:47, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Seems were in a pre-2011 Utah situation. I think the best course of action would be to find the 1931 seal and just use that on the flag, since that would follow the legal description to the t. I guess you could write a state delegate and have them propose a bill to standardize the flag once and for all like Utah and Louisiana did in 2011/2010. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 23:02, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Just so that I'm recording this somewhere, here is a timeline of events, as far as I can tell, that led to the seal/flag being the way it is, and where I think the plumage issues arose:

• 1776: George Wythe, George Mason, and others come up with the seal, its Roman motif, and motto
• 1779: A seal is made in Paris for the state, may have looked something like this, but the tyrant isn't dead enough and many folks don't like it. Does have plume and exposed right breast.
• 1809 (or so): A replacement seal gets made, used till it wears out in 1856. Looked like this, no exposed breast, but yes has plume.
• 1831: Seal pinned on a flag, perhaps for the first time, by soldiers sent to crush Nat Turner's rebellion. May have looked kind of like this, with plume.
• 1861: A sculptor named Alexander Galt makes a new seal, based on some drawings by an artist named Benjamin West. Looks like the top two here (another link). Does have plume.
• 1865: Post-war government adds "Liberty and Union" to the seal, looks like this, or the bottom one here. Does not seem to have plume.
• 1873: Post-post-war government removes "Liberty and Union", prefers Civil-War-era style and writes down instructions of what it should look like, including specifying that the Amazon should be holding a sword in her left hand and a spear in her right, even though seals at this time, like this or in color like this, do the opposite. Does have plume.
• 1903: Assembly members realize the resulting seal doesn't actually follow the 1873 law, perhaps there's confusion over "her left hand" verses "the left hand". Seals at this time looked something like these with the sword in her left hand, spear in right, no exposed breast. Still has plume.
• 1912: Gov. William Mann enforces the use of seals that like this with exposed left breast and wings on the top of the spear. Tiny feather still on helmet, which is very conical.
• 1928: Daughters of the American Revolution raise a stink about the flag/seal not following Wythe and Mason's instructions, Virginian members propose a new one that can be seen here (login needed)
• 1930: Assembly agrees with DAR, and includes them in a commission to create a new version.
• December 1931: The governor approves of the a version that is generally the seal seen today, with sword and spear switching hands and exposed left breast, as can be seen here or perhaps here. I maintain that this helmet is a cap with a plume and await confirmation or proof I'm wrong. This 1933 3D version definitely understood the top to be a plume.
• 1946: Assembly asks for an official color version from the Art Commission of Virginia to be based on 1930 description by 1947, because flag manufacturers keep coloring things incorrectly.
• 1949: The Art Commission turns in their watercolor version two years late. This is where I think the helmet and plume merged as one big helmet.

I'm still missing documents here, and there's a bunch of things that only exist in boxes in the Library of Virginia in downtown Richmond, including correspondence and reports from 1930 that might give solid descriptions that say "yes plume" or "no plume". If anyone lives in Richmond and wants to help, shoot me a message, since I'm not sure when I'd be able to investigate in person. In the meantime, I'll defend the version that LadyofHats, Nux, and I collaborated on as following the law and breaking what I still worry is a cycle of both the state and Wikipedia copying bad internet 1.0 versions of the flag. -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 18:36, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I do believe that the version on Wikipedia should be the best version possible but should also represent the actual official version endorsed by the state even if that has been created because of laziness. I also know that a lot of flags you see in the wild are just ripped from wikipedia and created that way so it's a bit of an ouroboros of mediocrity (see Maine flag and my attempts to improve that one)

I think you've made a good argument here as to why the more complex version should stay up but at the same time the authority on the flag is the Secretary of the Commonwealth. In the blue-book that is currently up the flags behind the heads of state (in black and white unfortunately) are more complicated than the previous version but less complicated than the current version. I believe, based on that they are in the official portraiture, that must be official version. (with some shading etc) State agencies may err when purchasing their flags but most states designate an official producer and are supplying the official design for them, not just scraping it off the internet.

All that being said it seems to me that if we really want to represent the actual flag of Virginia we need to get input from the Sec of the Commonwealth. Right? But then what if that version is "Wong" when compared to the statute? (and errors have been found in the past and then corrected). I dunno. I think the best we can do is represent the best version of the flag being flown by each state is and not our interpretation of the text of the statute or what we think is a better version.

That being said I have not been able to find an unfurled version of the flag as seen behind the state leaders in their official portraits but I do believe that is the version which should be represented on wikipedia. Enzwell (talk) 11:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I do see room for compromise between the Xrmap version and the LadyofHats version if that is necessary. But again, I feel like we need to let that Xrmap version die, and not see it as "correct" just because it had been used for so long on Wikipedia, which led it to what you've beautifully phrased as an "ouroboros of mediocrity." I did contact the Secretary of the Commonwealth's office, and I do have an EPS file of the seal from them. Here is a link to it as a PNG. I'm hesitant to upload it here, items produced by U.S. states aren't typically public domain, and if you see my timeline above, I'm not sure the 1923 rules cover it either. Even though it's the closest I've come to something official, I see obvious issues with it. The colors it uses are clearly not what I would describe as correct, there's even several spots that it appears they forgot to color, and to me color is the primary issue I'd like to resolve. I made this as an example a while back, so can I ask folks, is just changing colors in those two spots make the seal/flag wrong? Or is increasing the detail overall, like in her sword or the tyrant's hair also bothersome? To me, that stuff is like your work improving the moose on Maine's flag, which I agree with. Thoughts? -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 14:13, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I honestly think the more detailed version we have up currently would suffice as representing the State's seal until we have a more official version of it presented to us, but I am in favor of keeping the one Patrick uploaded. IndysNotHere (talk) 19:34, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

To not seeing the Xrmap version as "correct" because it's been used so long on wikipedia: How about seeing it as correct because, as you pointed out earlier in this discussion, that version has flown at the capitol and been used in an official capacity?

While it may be technically correct, the LadyOfHats version of the flag is so far divorced from common usage in both color and detail as to not immediately parse as the State flag to my eye. While I laud efforts to produce a more-detailed and correct version of the flag/seal, it feels important to me that the image used on Wikipedia should reflect the reality on the ground. Pattleboats (talk) 14:28, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Note that the flag is based on the law. It is quite common that the individual versions of the flag differ from each other. Very often it depends on the materials and size of the flag. For example, it is not possible to make a flag in detail on a small patch. Sometimes the skills of the craftsman cause that the execution differs significantly from the imagination. Final compatibility is considered at the level of heraldic or legal description. And LadyOfHats version is compatible with legal description. Nux (talk··dyskusja) 17:32, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I do note that. I will also point out that, just because a thing is technically correct, doesn't mean that it is in any way, shape, or form representative of reality. While the LadyOfHats version does meet the legal description of the flag of Virginia, it is not representative of any flag actually flown anywhere in the commonwealth, or used in any official capacity; it is thus not practically correct. This is a perfectly legal flag of the United States per 4 U.S. Code § 1 and § 2; however I would rightly be tarred and feathered if I suggested using this for the article on the US flag. Pattleboats (talk) 18:03, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

@Pattleboats: I want to correct something there, the Xrmap version, as far as I know, hasn't "flown at the state capital." It's been used on state documents and websites, and if you search for "Virginia flag" you will indeed see many, many flags for sale that use the Xrmap seal from any number of vendors, but looking at the photos I have from the capital, like this from 2019, I think the flags there were likely bought from a vendor named FORTISVEX, probably off Amazon if I had to guess. The thing that makes this FORTISVEX version stand out is the long chain with many links in the tyrant's left hand.

If "having flown at the capital" is the singular consideration to say a design is official, then there you go, someone can go about translating it into an vector image. I'll note the seal embedded in the plaza at the capital is totally different, and appears to be based off of the EPS file the Secretary of the Commonwealth shared. I will maintain that both of those have issues. The embedded seal doesn't have a chain at all, when the law specifically calls for a "a broken chain in his left hand", while FORTISVEX's version still doesn't "look like a woman," allegedly one of the major issues that led to past redesigns, and still has what, to me, is the massive misunderstanding of the last 75 years, that the top half of her helmet was intended to be a plume, not more helmet.

Like I've said, I think there's lots of room for compromise, and I have a version that I'd like to get opinions on. Here is a mashup where I've gone into Photoshop and tried to match the colors and position of the FORTISVEX version using as many design improvements from LadyofHats (talk · contribs) as I can. Might that be something Nux (talk · contribs) and other editors here could live with? It's got its own visual issues that would have to smoothed out when recreated as a vector, but I'd wait for some consensus before starting that task. I'd like to think this is what George Mason and George Wythe might have come up with in 1776 if they just had Adobe Creative Cloud and more artistic ability. Thoughts? -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 19:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

The Xrmap version with the blue helmet and purple-robed tyrant has indeed been flown at the state capital. All flags available on the Virginia state government's official flag store virtually match the Xrmap version of the seal, and any person ordering a flag through the official Virginia flag store can request that the flag they purchased be flown over the state capital for a day. In addition, all official state agencies that purchase state flags from the store will have the flag flown over the capital, in accordance with APSPM section 2.1, and thirdly, all state agencies that do not make their flag purchases from the flag store are required to purchase them from the Virginia Distribution Center, whose Virginia flags also virtually match the Xrmap seal.

Going off of what Pattleboats stated earlier, while there may be an old, long-forgotten law on the books delimitating what the flag should look like, the Xrmap is essentially the version that is currently used by the Virginia State government at every official capacity, from being emblazoned on the governor's podium during speeches, to being hoisted on flags in public schools, and to being watermarked on official state documents, and has been the case for decades. Wikipedia, as the world's most-widely-used and most-referenced encyclopedia, should represent what is currently the case rather then what should be, and while the LadyofHats version may be closer to what legislators originally wanted it to be, it is not the version in use by the state government of Virginia in any capacity, and to use it or a hybrid compromise version based on it to represent the state of Virginia would be inaccurate. Volqilth (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I think VDC is actually using an old version from Wikimedia. Maybe just send them an update ;). Nux (talk··dyskusja) 15:22, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think so, Nux, since the Virginia flag store and Virginia Distribution Center both predate the Wikipedia page, which was created in 2004, while the Virginia flag store has been around since 1990 and the Virginia Distribution Center since 1960.

Either way, however, the Xrmap version much more closely resembles the flag and seal currently in use and endorsed by the State of Virginia then the LadyofHats version, which has a silver/red helmet and purple/yellow tyrant instead of the all-blue helmet and all-purple tyrant, and the Xrmap is more accurate then the mashup version proposed by Patrick, as while the mashup corrects most of the colors of the LadyofHats version, the face and helmet still differ from seals and flags depicted and endorsed by the state government. Therefore, I propose reverting back to the Xrmap version. Volqilth (talk) 15:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The figure (amazon) should hold a sword and not just any sword, it should be parazonium. Search for that sword in historical sources (there is a painting even on Commons). That blob on Xramp version does not even resemble a sword. Also what was that blue hat sopused to be, because it didn't look like a proper helmet. Also look at historical versions of the flag and seal (you can even find them in the Wikipedia article). When you do that you will notice that Lady of hats version is actually most accurate in terms of historical accuracy and description provided by the current law. Nux (talk··dyskusja) 17:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Regardless of how the sword and helmet should look like, however, the simple, cylindrical sword and blue hat-like helmet on the Xrmap version are both identical to how they are depicted in all official renditions of the seal and flag produced and endorsed by the Commonwealth of Virginia, as seen on the official flag store and Virginia Distribution Center. Even though the LadyofHats version may more accurately represent what state legislators originally had in mind for the flag generations ago and may indeed have been what the flag historically used to look like at one point in time, that version is not currently in use by the state government of Virginia in any capacity, and hasn't been the case for decades.

Wikipedia, as a neutral and factual encyclopedia, should represent the current state of affairs in the world instead of how they should be or are supposed to be in an ideal world, for the latter is subjective. Therefore, Wikipedia should represent the version officially endorsed and in-use by the Commonwealth, even if it does not perfectly align with the law technically written down on the books, and the Xrmap version more accurately represents the flag currently in use and endorsed by Virginia then the LadyofHats version or the mashup proposed earlier. Volqilth (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I want to explain a bit of the providence for the Xrmap flag collection, since that's what you've been reverting back to. It was started in 2001 by students at a community college in southeastern France who maintained it for a little over four years. It was a terminal line command program they built to translate map data from the World Bank and CIA Fact Book into simple map images to use in reports, and it's probably TMI, but it's "xrmap" because it was based on an earlier "rmap" that was written by a 90s programmer named Reza. My understanding from their 20 year old changelog is that the flags got added just so that users could color their maps with a flag background inside the borders. Most flags may have come from Openclipart in July 2005, though Virginia is actually not included in the Openclipart collection that would have been available then, so the exact source for Virginia's Xrmap SVG may unfortunately be lost, and I'm actually not 100% that the version from Xrmap is Public Domain at all. Gun to my head, I tend to think some student may have run a file that looked like this one though some sort of early SVG conversion software, likely Inkscape 0.4, and then maybe adjusted colors afterwards. Again, the tell on these different seals tends to be the tyrant's chain, and the weird lack of lines around the chain on the Xrmap version is probably the result of generation loss from using an overexposed image at the start of that process.

With that said, I do have to take some issue with one assertion: No, the Xrmap version is not "endorsed" or "identical to" versions endorsed by the Commonwealth. Yes, I have seen the Xrmap seal, likely stolen off Wikipedia, in the header template on state reports, typically from the Department of Corrections or the State Police (one example), but if you're going to say that makes it official, then you have to give the same credence to this marvel. You can see the plethora of variations hosted on the state's own website just by Googling Virginia Seal or Virginia Flag on site search. The horrible conclusion that I came to at the start of this back in March was simply that there is no good official template for us to follow. I understand how scary that is for us on Wikipedia, and I don't have a great answer here, which is part of what got us to this discussion. For what it's worth, Virginia is far from unique in having variations in their flag, and I've pointed above to South Carolina's inability to agree on what their tree looks like.

So I hope that helps explain why I for one won't accept just going back to Xrmap at this point. I'm all for finding a compromise, but if the opposite position is that narry one pixel of the Xrmap file may be altered, then I'm not sure where it leaves us. -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 16:59, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Virginia's seal is a state/government symbol, thus any digital rendition of it is automatically public domain under US law, regardless of who made it. Therefore, there would be no risk of copyright infringement should the Xrmap version be used.

As previously mentioned, all Virginia state agencies procure their physical flags from either the official flag store or from the Virginia Distribution Center, the former of which has produced flags since 1990 and the latter since 1960, and the seals on the flags produced by these manufacturers are very similar or near-identical to the Xrmap seal previously used on Wikipedia, far more so then the LadyofHats version or the hybrid version based on it. The flags in the Google link posted have minor color variations, and the marvelous flag is highly simplified, but they likewise all resemble the Xrmap version far more then the LadyofHats-based versions, with each having a simple all-blue hat and simple cylindrical object in the hand. Thus, it would be more accurate at this time to revert to the Xrmap version, as it out of the currently available options most resembles the Virginia seal in it's current form and variations. I am likewise open to compromise, however, the LadyofHats version should not be used as a basis for a compromise flag, for it is too divergent from the seals currently in use by the Commonwealth. Volqilth (talk) 21:50, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Works made by the U.S. federal government are not eligible to be protected by copyright law, that's been the case since 1895, but only California and Florida have similar laws among U.S. states. To be clear, I don't think Virginia has or would try to copyright their seal, but there are other examples of places that do, like Nebraska and in Australia, and Virginia does reserve the right to "determine the appropriateness" of commercial usage, which Wikipedia's fundamentally is. What could be copyrighted, however, is a photograph of Virginia's flag or seal. Like these photos from Getty Images I keep linking to, neither those source JPGs nor derivatives of them would be allowed on the Commons. So what I was saying, because I'm unable to determine the line of authorship on the Xrmap file, is that I can't exclude the possibility that it's a derivative of a copyrighted photo.

So you keep linking to the stores at 3dcartstores.com and afsi.com (here's direct images of their flags [1][2]), but I've looked at enough of these seals/flags to tell you, even with their very low quality images, those are not the Xrmap file and they are different even from each other. Notice where the Amazonian's right hand and head is compared to the V in Virginia, notice the horizontal folds in the toga, notice how far the spear shaft overlaps its tip, notice the white circle around the seal, notice the different aspect ratio of the overall flag. Which one of those is right? If differences are acceptable, then why is the LadyofHats version (or a compromise with it) so unacceptable? If what we're debating here really is what is "near identical" verses "too divergent" then we need to have scale. I agree the LadyofHats version is divergent, but I, and some other editors here evidently, don't see it as too divergent.

And since you mention "currently available options," here is a PNG of a compromise SVG, given my limited skills with SVGs. I'm not suggesting that as a final compromise, nothing on Wikipedia is ever final, but if it moves us closer, I could upload that today. -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 12:45, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

At least from my perspective, the images from the Virginia Distribution Center and officially state-endorsed flag store don't look all that different from eachother, slight differences in a few minor details like the folds of the robe, the hand, and aspect ratio, but the major, defining features that could be easily noticed at a distance, such as an all-blue hat-looking helmet with a bulb in the back, simple cylindrical object in the hand, and all-purple-robed tyrant, are present across both and are also present in the seal used on the governor's podium during his Memorial day speech.

The LadyofHats version, as previously mentioned, has a two-colored silver helmet with a red frill instead of an all-blue hat-looking helmet with a bulb, a detailed sheaved sword instead of a simple, usually-silver cylinder, and a purple/yellow-clad tyrant that does not match with the aforementioned flags, nor with any flags currently in use by the Commonwealth at this time. In addition, the Amazon's face in the LadyofHats version likewise significantly differs from the flags currently in-use, which is orientated exactly at a 90 degree angle to the east, such that only the whites of the eyes can be seen, while the eyes in all state-produced flags are all-black and are orientated such that the second eye is just barely out of frame. The compromise you posted fixes the LadyofHats version's colors for the tyrant, however, the other issues remain, such as the helmet being the wrong shape and using two colors, the object in the left hand being an ornate sword instead of a simple cylinder, and the orientation of the Amazon's face looking straight east to the extent that the pupils aren't visible.

The Xrmap version, on the otherhand, doesn't have these issues, with the Amazon, tyrant, and cylinder retaining the basic shapes and colors of seals produced by the Commonwealth, therefore, more accurately represents Virginia's seal/flag at this time, and would serve a better basis for a compromise version, which could fairly easily receive more detailed robes and a different scale, while the LadyofHats version would need major portions of it like the helmet and Amazon's face redrawn.

Going off of what Pattleboats stated earlier, for an average person, the differences in the LadyofHats version are stark and are greatly divorced from common usage, such that it would easily be mistaken for another state's flag or give the false impression that our state's flag has had a recent redesign, the latter of which was my first thought when seeing it, while the Xrmap version's differences are minor at best and immediately comes across as our state's flag. Volqilth (talk) 11:48, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

So the thing about compromising with strangers on the internet is that you rarely get 100% of what you're asking for. Make your own compromise SVG or build a consensus. -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 12:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

And that is my goal, to build a consensus through discussion. The LadyofHats version, as previously mentioned by myself and other users, is too divergent from the flags currently used by the Commonwealth of Virginia, featuring major alterations like the shape and color of the helmet that stem from a re-interpretation of the original definition written generations ago, rather then being based on how the state decided to interpret that definition or how it looks in modern times. The Xrmap version, on the otherhand doesn't have those major deviations, and reverting back to it, at least for the time being until another compromise version is made, would be more accurate then continuing to use the LadyofHats version or a derivative of it. Volqilth (talk) 13:24, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Given the aforementioned visual discrepancies between the LadyofHats version and the seals used by the Commonwealth, are there any objections to the statement that the Xrmap version of the seal more closely resembles the seals currently in-use by the Commonwealth of Virginia at this time then both the LadyofHats version and the recoloration of it created by Patrick? And if not, are there any objections to therefore revert back to the Xrmap version of the seal at this current time? Volqilth (talk) 08:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

There is objection that Xramp version is not following the law. Nux (talk··dyskusja) 09:46, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Then you agree, Nux, however, that the Xrmap version of the seal more closely resembles the seals currently in-use by the Commonwealth of Virginia at this time then both the LadyofHats version and the recoloration of it created by Patrick?

While there is the law that is written down on what the seal should look like, there are many possible and conflicting interpretations of that law, such as with how many firearms the 2nd Amendment protects or how many jurors there are required to be for a fair trial under the 6th amendment. The executive branch in Virginia is tasked with enforcing the laws that are created by the state legislature, and their interpretation of the law for the seal has stood for at least 30, possibly 60 years; even though that many of us may or may not disagree with their interpretation, wouldn't you agree that the Virginia executive branch's interpretation of a more simplistic design is the more authoritative one? Volqilth (talk) 16:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I reject the premise that the goal here is solely to copy what is on the governor's podium. I argue there's measurable and encyclopedic value to having a well drawn subject matter too. The file used in the Xrmap collection in 2005 was neither well nor accurately drawn then, and 18 years online has not improved it. I am 100% willing to compromise but 0% willing to revert Xrmap. If you are unable to create your own compromise SVG, then write to the Graphics Lab for help. Lastly, in terms of building a consensus around which file to use, I just want to note that the participants who have advocated for reversion here or taken action to do so seem to have very few edits outside this discussion, ex. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. But can I ask Nux, if I did implement these sorts of colors, would you object? -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 19:52, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The goal isn't to solely copy the seal on the governor's podium, Patrick, but rather, it is to ensure that the seal shown on Wikipedia most accurately reflects the seals in-use by the state government at this time, regardless of how well the state can draw. The seal used on the governor's podium, the seals on the Virginia Flag Store, and the seals on Virginia Distribution Center are all currently endorsed by the Commonwealth, which all feature previously-mentioned and substantial differences to the design that LadyofHats created based on their own interpretation of the law, rather then the state's interpretation that has stood for 30-60 years.

The Xrmap version may be old and could use touching up on some of the details, such as the robes, but it shares the same fundamental features that the state-endorsed seals have, such as an all-blue hat-looking helmet with a bulb on the back, a simple (usually silver) cylindrical object in the left hand, an all-purple-robed tyrant, and the Amazon's head being orientated such that the second eye is just barely out of frame.

Given the aforementioned visual discrepancies between the LadyofHats version and the seals used by the Commonwealth, wouldn't you agree that the Xrmap more closely and accurately resembles the seal of Virginia then the LadyofHats version? And if so, wouldn't you agree that reverting back to the Xrmap version would be more accurate then continuing to use the LadyofHats version? Volqilth (talk) 21:17, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I reject the premise that the goal here is to recreate the seal on governor's podium, or for sale on 3dcartstores.com and/or afsi.com, or on some other website, or made up in your head, et cetera. I'm happy including examples like those as references for a compromise design, but again, none of those seals even match each other. The tyrant in the photo of the podium is wearing boots, which, as far as I can tell, isn't and has never been used elsewhere. So that, to me, demonstrates a major flaw in your whole "shares the same fundamental features" line of argument. Until you present an actual compromise, I don't see the point in continuing this conversation. In the meantime, I have gone and uploaded the version I came up with, which sets the Amazon's plume to the same blue as her toga, and the tyrant's breastplate to purple. I also removed the manacle on the chain, so that bit should now match the chains from 3dcartstores.com and afsi.com. Again, Nux, let me know if you find that acceptable. -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 18:01, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question from earlier, Patrick; while there is some variation to the state flag and seal from official sources, such as the seal on the governor's podium having the sandals completely filled in, wouldn't you agree that the Xrmap version more closely resembles the flags that are used by the state government then either the LadyofHats version or your proposed recoloration of it, based on the sources such as the VDC that have been presented over the course of this discussion?

The Virginia Flag Store and the Virginia Distribution Center are both the officially sanctioned distribution centers for the flag of Virginia, the former of which is linked to on the Commonwealth's website and the latter linked to on the Flag Store. As per the Agency Procurement and Surplus Property Manual (APSPM) section 2.1, Virginia state agencies that do not require their flags to be flown over the capital in Richmond are legally required to purchase them from the Virginia Distribution Center. As they are they both are the Commonwealth's officially sanctioned flag distributers through which most or all state agencies acquire their flags, aren't they the foremost official sources for what the flag should look like, and shouldn't the flag depicted on Wikipedia therefore closely resemble them as much as possible? Volqilth (talk) 19:26, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

You are right, I didn't answer it, because I don't see the point in continuing this thread when I've twice now rejected the premise of that question. You can't admit that variations are acceptable with one breath and then insist they not in the next. As I said on June 6, I am not bothered by slightly more variation, and as I pointed out in April and May, there unfortunately exists no set of "the flags that are used by the state government" that can be construed as some official source. I understand why not having a simple official source could scare a user into thinking that something like 3dcartstores.com must therefore be followed, but, again, as we said months ago, it's an ouroboros of mediocrity. Let it die. I don't think there's more to be said at the moment. -- Patrick, _oѺ^∞ 20:23, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

(outdent) 

The official state flags are indeed to a degree varied, making it impossible to have a flag that 100% matches all state-produced flags, therefore, the flag shown on Wikipedia should showcase the design elements and variations which are most commonly used across all flags. As I previously stated, in spite of all of the variations that exist, all official Virginia flags which are currently produced by the State share several distinctive design features in common, such as an Amazon wearing a simple, all-blue hat-looking helmet with a bulb on the back; an all-purple robed tyrant; a simple, cylindrical object in the left hand of the Amazon; the Amazon having all-black eyes, and the Amazon's head having an orientation leaving the second eye just out of frame. The LadyofHats version and your proposed compromise differ in these aspects by having a silver helmet with a frill, an ornate, sheaved sword instead of a cylinder, and the amazon looking straight to the right, such that only the whites of the eyes are visible. On the otherhand, the Xrmap version shares the aforementioned design elements with the state flags, having the simple all-blue helmet, cylinder in hand, orientation such that the second eye is just out of frame, and all-purple tyrant. Therefore I ask; given that it out of the current options most accurately depicts the flags most commonly used by the Commonwealth of Virginia, why are you staunchly opposed to reverting to it?

You state that there is no place that can be construed no singular, simple, official source, however, there are indeed sources with official backing. Enzwell previously on April 25th stated that most states designated an official producer for their flags, and Virginia has two: the Virginia Flag Store since 1990 and the Virginia Distribution Center since 1960. The source you keep referring to as "3dcartstores.com" is the host for the Virginia Flag Store's webpage (https://store-dgs-virginia-gov.3dcartstores.com/Virginia-State-Flags_c_7.html), and the one you keep referring to as "afsi.com" is the web host for the Virginia Distribution Center's online catalogue, whose main page can be found here. As they are both owned by the state government for use by state agencies, and given that state agencies are in most cases required to purchase from them, they are valid, objective, official, and legitimate sources for the Virginia flag and seal, and given that they both predate the Xrmap image, they couldn't have copied or stolen it from Wikipedia.

Maybe the flag/seal in their current simplistic forms originate from a "lazy" mistake or as a cost-saving measure that occurred more then 60 years ago, however, it isn't the place of Wikipedia to judge the aesthetics of flags or to revise them to more aesthetically pleasing, only to ensure that they are accurately depicted to how they currently exist. The highly-ornate LadyofHats version and compromise version based on it, while perhaps may be more pleasing to look at for many, aren't accurate representations to how our state's flag currently appears or has appeared in the last 60 years due to the aforementioned major deviations to designs common across all flags in-use by the Commonwealth. Therefore, I propose reverting to the Xrmap version, such that the Virginia flag will more accurately reflect, as Pattleboats put it on May 17th, the "reality on the ground." Volqilth (talk) 03:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Can you please provide a source for such claim? "the flag shown on Wikipedia should showcase the design elements and variations which are most commonly used across all flags"

Flags should follow law and the law provides description and doesn't provide a template. Some countries does provide templates in their laws, but the state does not. Nux (talk··dyskusja) 08:32, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

While there is the description that is written down in the law, there are many possible interpretations of that written law and what it means. The Supreme Court, for example, has ruled that the 6th Amendment requires that juries must consist of at least 6 jurors in order to be a fair trial, despite there being no such number written in the 6th Amendment itself. Therefore, to follow the law, as the state government is the highest authority to have ruled on this matter, it should be the State government's interpretation of the law describing the appearance of flag/seal that is followed, even if the state took creative liberties with some of the details, for it is their interpretation that is the official one used on state documents, used in state schools, and used on state websites.

As the state has many variations/interpretations of that law instead of a singular, universal template or variation, I believe that the most logical and accurate way to represent all of those variations in-use would be either to use the most common variation, or have an amalgamation featuring the most commonly-used design elements across all variations. As previously mentioned, the LadyofHats version lacks the design features most common to state flags/seals, nor has itself been used in the past 60 years by the state, therefore, is not as suitable as the Xrmap version, which shares more features in common with the state's interpretations of how the flag/seal should look like. Volqilth (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Who cares about 6th amendment. We are talking about an image. There are many interpretations? Great. That means any interpretation that follows the law is valid. Nux (talk··dyskusja) 14:45, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

The 6th amendment was an example used to iterate my point that, while there may indeed be many valid interpretations of a law, the interpretation of a law that is currently endorsed by the highest authority within the government should be the one used on Wikipedia. As Pattleboats mentioned on May 21st, this flag is one valid interpretation of the US flag based on the legal description, but isn't the interpretation endorsed by the federal government, therefore, is not used on Wikipedia. Likewise, while the LadyofHats version or proposed recoloration of it by Patrick may be valid interpretations of the law, they are not the interpretation that is currently endorsed by the Commonwealth of Virginia, therefore, a version that more resembles the Commonwealth's interpretation of the law, such as the Xrmap version, should be used instead on Wikipedia. Volqilth (talk) 16:48, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh so you mean like there is an official standing on what is and what is not the correct interpretation? Can you link to a case that says that? Nux (talk··dyskusja) 22:58, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the Xrmap version is just used due to its accessibility. 24.12.3.153 00:11, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Use the xrmap version its more accurate make the visual enhanced version a separate file you are violating the state seal you take a blind eye of all official depictions and I no others will stand for it you cant redesign a seal to your own pleasure because it looks good its the states job and you are not hired by the state you MUST use seals accurate to official depictions no matter how bad they look accoeding to what their sappsed to represent look at all official uses I.E Websites, sighns, flags, documents, and other logos that depict the seal and you will find they bare resemblance to xrmap some of these uses of the seal pre dates wikipedia its self look at any flag book and official depictions and you will find it also bares resemblance to xrmaps version

stop changing the seal because you think it looks good and leave your version as a separate file and stop violating the proper seal Skunkcrew (talk) 02:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.commonwealth.virginia.gov/official-documents/seals-of-the-commonwealth/ please read where it says

"For more information on use of the official state seal of the Commonwealth, please see our Seal Protocol document "

It says in the pdf to use the seal approved by the art commission their website depicts it to the one I reverted their is no consensus that needs to be made if their is a official version https://vca.virginia.gov/ Skunkcrew (talk) 15:44, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

So first off, please stop edit warring, that's not helpful in making a point. I think we've gone over these arguments above, but yes, lots of state agencies over the years took PNGs from Wikipedia to post on their websites. That includes the Virginia Commission for the Arts. It's a bit of an ouroboros, and I think we need to stop going around. As a sidebar, the "Arts Commission" referred to is not the "Virginia Commission for the Arts", it's a commission appointed by the General Assembly. The Virginia Commission for the Arts is a different group who give state funded grants to artists, I've actually already emailed with them, they know nothing about the seal design. -- Patrick Neil, _oѺ^∞/Talk 17:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

ok I am sorry but can you upload xrmaps version of the flag and seal as a separate file Skunkcrew (talk) 20:35, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

can you upload the xrmap version of the seal and flag as separate files please Skunkcrew (talk) 20:12, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I would rather not fork this file like that, I think having one seal and one flag file reduces potential confusion for the different language Wikipedias that link to Commons files. I explained back in June why I, for one, have no interest in going back to xrmap at this point. That said, I can say that I am working on yet another revision, hopefully ready in the next few weeks, that will seek to alleviate some more differences between this current LadyofHats version and the xrmap version, namely in the Amazon's face, hair, and helmet. However, I still haven't heard specifics about what all is "wrong" with the current consensus version. -- Patrick Neil, _oѺ^∞/Talk 19:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I will assert that it's disingenuous to refer to the currently-live version of the file as "the consensus version" based on the number of people presenting arguments against it; we clearly lack consensus here.

That aside, let's try to build some consensus by pointing out things that are wrong with the currently live image. I'll be comparing the current design of the seal to the Great Seal in the compass as it appears outside the capitol building.

Here's my original source, and here it is perspective-adjusted. Absent an official government image (which exist, but are repeatedly rejected on the uncitable claim that multiple government agencies have just copied the xrmap version from wikipedia... which even if they did, would still make that version in official use, but I digress.)

Loosely from the top down:

• The Amazon's too short, and too far to the left.
• The helmet does not feature a feather, and the base of the helmet is the wrong shape.
• The Amazon's hair does not reach her shoulder
• The perspective of the head is off.
• The right trapezius is the wrong shape.
• There are lines on the neck where there shouldn't be, and aren't where there should.
• The sword is at an incorrect angle, and is wildly and baselessly overdetailed at both the hilt and tip.
• The Amazon's nipple should be an upward-facing crescent, not a full circle.
• The folds of the toga are wrong; the backside of the toga is also not visible at the lower hem.
• The Amazon's legs are missing lines where there should be, and contains lines that don't even loosely correspond to those on the seal
• The entire shape of the Amazon's right leg is wrong.
• The crown has the wrong number of points, is at the wrong angle, and has an additional horizontal line at the base.
• The perspective is wrong on the Amazon's right foot
• The Tyrant's whip should not wrap around the Amazon's left foot (which should be on top of the Tyrant's arm, not behind it)
• The chain should not wrap around the Tyrant's arm; the chain is also massively overdetailed.
• The Tyrant's left foot is in the wrong perspective, and the sandal wraps are all wrong.
• The Tyrant's right sandal is all wrong.
• The Tyrant's skirt is wrong in positioning as well as number of flaps and that gold trimming should not be there.
• The Tyrant's left leg is positioned badly.
• The Tyrant's breastplate is almost completely off-model.
• The speartip appears to be knapped-flint with a wrapping, not smooth steel; the spearpoint also extends too far down.
• The leaves around the seal are far too smooth, and sometimes in the wrong shape
• The size, amount, and placement of the berries is wrong in many locations.

I also want to point out, lest I get the "the government just copied the xrmap version and therefore it doesn't count" argument again, that the seal at the capitol is not a copy of the xrmap version cast in bronze - the shape of the speartip, the wrappings of the sandals, and the chains are the the strongest indicators. That said, the xrmap version is, on the whole, much closer to the seal than the current LadyOfHats version. I have overlaid a quick-and-dirty outlining of the seal at the capitol (in pink) with both versions of the seal.

Here's the current LadyOfHats Version, and here's that same overlay with the xrmap version. Now, I'll admit, that's a quick-and-dirty outlining, and I may not have gotten the perspective exactly bang on, but even allowing for that, by any reasonable metric the xrmap version is far closer to the seal at the capitol, and should be the prefered version until such time a more faithful adaptation can be made. Pattleboats (talk) 03:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

(outdent) 

A couple things. That comparison a bit disingenuous, your pink outline is tilted by about 4.35%, and if you were to just straighten it, that would alleviate many of your positioning concerns. I noted this last year, but that bronze seal, which I believe was created when they renovated the plaza in 2007, seems to be based off of this EPS file that the Secretary of the Commonwealth will send if you email them, as I did. And as I pointed out, that file has issues. The colors seem very off, including some spots it looks like they plum forgot. If you were to open up the EPS file, you would find their source hidden on a disabled layer. It is an image found a few places online, and happens to be overexposed in a way that the chain, though visible as a chain, is very washed out. It looks like whoever traced it in Adobe Illustrator in 2006 (the first copyright year inside the file), misunderstood what that bit was.

In terms of consensus, as I noted last June, "the participants who have advocated for reversion here or taken action to do so seem to have very few edits outside this discussion." The unstated suggestion, which I'll say aloud now because of the lack of edits in the last year by many of those usernames, was sockpuppetry. Not necessarily by you, but it is kind of duck-shaped.

I would certainly entertain "a more faithful adaptation." I don't feel the need to restate my low opinion of the Xrmap version, it's all in the text above, but "faithful adaptation" is not a term I would use around it. As I noted in that same June comment, if you lack artistic ability, you can contact the Graphics Lab with that itemized wishlist. If, however, your going to leave the art up to me and others, then I'll keep trying to make tweaks where I can. Would this be an improvement? -- Patrick Neil, _oѺ^∞/Talk 19:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Pattleboats, Skunkcrew, and Nux: I have an update I'd like to share. I did look at Pattleboat's list of 23 bulleted issues, and feel I've addressed at least 17 in this new SVG. The Amazon's head is, I admit, about where my Adobe Illustrator skills run out, so to change the tilt may require outside help, perhaps from 痛 (talk · contribs) or maybe LadyofHats (talk · contribs), if either of them are willing to take another run at changes. I want to be clear that I'm not saying this version is perfect, or final, but at least a step forward from the September 2023 version that is up now. Thanks -- Patrick Neil, _oѺ^∞/Talk 15:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protect this file?

Due to the ongoing debate regarding the seal, this page (and the file) should probably be semi-protected. 24.12.3.153 23:23, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Inaccuracy

The current file is completely wrong. There are so many sources backing up the other Flag, without the metal helmet. We need to change this. Eehuiio (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Hi, welcome to the discussion, we've been talking about this topic for just over a year now. In that lengthy thread above, you might see there is a problem with sources being circular, so if you do have ones that you think aren't, those are always helpful. I'm also not sure what you mean by "other flag". For many years Wikipedia used a flag generated in a 2005 clipart gallery, which I've referred to as the Xrmap SVG file, since Xrmap is the defunct French community college mapping program through which flags like that one got bulk uploaded to Wikimedia Commons. And by "without the metal helmet," is your contention that she should have no helmet or a different looking helmet? I do have this proposal that I've been suggesting as a step in the right direction, even as I know it won't make every user 100% satisfied. That, unfortunately, is the nature of compromise. Is that something that you think would help? -- Patrick Neil, _oѺ^∞/Talk 12:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

No, im trying to get the old one with the iron helmet completely removed. Ive been living in Virginia for almost 2 years and have never seen a flag with the iron helmet. Even pictures from the state capital depict the one witbout the iron helmet. I want everybody to agree that the one with iron helmet is completely wrong, and that it should be changed. Eehuiio (talk) 02:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)