User talk:Bmzuckerman

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Bmzuckerman!

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-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 20:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Categories

Hi, In this edit, why add the broader category "Mills in Rhode Island" when the file has its specific category "Textile mills in Rhode Island", which is included in the category "Mills in Rhode Island"? Was that mill used as a mill for something other than textile? -- Asclepias (talk) 23:51, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Since both categories seemed relatively well populated, I thought it would maximize exposure to my images by including them in both categories. Bmzuckerman (talk) 19:37, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Commons categories are hierarchical, so please only place images and categories in the most specific categories available. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 20:32, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you the person who just wiped out all of the sub-categories that I've been laboriously entering? Bmzuckerman (talk) 21:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I have been editing categories and images that you have created. While the images you're uploading are great, categorization needs to follow the policy of Commons:Categories. In particular, I've been making several types of edits to the images and categories:

• Removing content categories from user categories. You are allowed to have user categories, such as Category:BMZ: Connecticut Mills, to keep track of what photos you've uploaded. (I do so myself at Category:Files by User:Pi.1415926535). However, per the guidelines at COM:USERCAT, user categories must be separate from the content category organization. Content categories like Category:Pejebscot Paper Mill, Topsham, ME should not be added to user categories.
• Removing overcategorization. As Asclepias and I mentioned above, you should only add images (and categories) to the most specific categories available. COM:OVERCAT is the relevant policy. For example, Category:Hockanum Mill, Rockville, CT is in Category:Former textile mills in Connecticut, so it does not need to be in the broader Category:Mills in Connecticut. Images that are in Category:Hockanum Mill, Rockville, CT do not need to be in any of its parent categories.
• Merging duplicate categories. Please check for an existing category before you create one. Several categories you have created duplicated existing categories such as Category:Ponemah Mills.
• Adding location categories. It's important to always add the category for the town/city/village. It's also useful to look through that category to see if there's any other images of the subject to add to your new category.
• Fixing extra text: I'm not sure why, but a number of the categories you've created have some extra text. See this version for example.

I understand this is a lot to learn all at once, but with 96 million files on Commons, it's important to keep the category system working smoothly. I'm happy to help with any questions you have. Best, Pi.1415926535 (talk) 01:15, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

And let me be clear: your photos are fantastic. The second half of the 20th century is a poorly documented period in industrial architecture, and your photos are an incredibly valuable historical record. All I've been doing is rearranging how they're sorted so that it matches how images are sorted elsewhere on Commons. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 21:06, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear veteran administrator: I really appreciate your detailed guidance. After only five weeks as a user, I'm trying hard to learn all of the relevant WikiMedia policies and protocols, but, as you rightly point out, "this is a lot to learn all at once." To respond to your comments:

1) "Removing content categories from user categories:" Please know that beyond sharing my architectural photos with the wiki community, I'm also intent on sharing relevant groupings with archives and colleagues around the country. For example, I was able to send my "BMZ: Rhode Island Mills" file (before you edited out the sub-categories) to the Rhode Island Historical Society and the Providence Preservation Society -- with a most gratifying response. (Since these photos are almost 50 years old, they're being viewed as historical artifacts, recording many mills which have since been tragically demolished or burned down.) While I understand that my images appear in the alphabetical order of my file names, I viewed the table of contents provided by my listing each file as a sub-category as a most useful finders guide. For the benefit of researchers, is there any wiggle room in the categorization policies that would allow me to restore these sub-categories?

2) "Removing overcategorization:" Please know that I approach this question as a trained historian (Brown Ph.D. 1981), with a primary concern for researchers trying to find what they're looking for. Yes, there is certainly overlap between "textile mills," "mills," "industrial architecture," and "factories." In my experience, however, I've seen that these terms mean slightly different things to different people. I, for example, tend to limit "mills" to those that were water-powered, while I use "factories" for those in urban areas that were steam- or electric-powered. "Textile mills," of course, is a sub-category of "mills" or "factories," but I notice that all three are pretty well-populated. On the other hand, I think of "industrial architecture" as an umbrella term that covers all of them, but it seems to be infrequently used. So, to try to cover any approach that a researcher would use in a search, I've tried to provide all of the most likely search terms. If the goal is to connect researchers with what they're looking for, wouldn't it be better to err on the side of over-categorization rather than under-categorization?

3) "Merging duplicate categories:" Yes, I certainly can pay more attention to this matter going forward.

4) "Adding location categories:" A great idea, which I'll attend to shortly! This kind of cross-referencing fits exactly into the goals I set forth in #2 above.

5) "Finding extra text:" I regret that I'll need additional instruction to understand what's going on in the "difference between revisions" page that you sent me as an example.

Thanks, again, for your guidance and support! Bmzuckerman (talk) 21:13, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll reply to your points in a moment, but for right now, please stop the edits you're actively making. You're adding overly-broad categories and extra text again. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Now I'm perplexed, because all I've been doing is adding the location categories, as you directed.

In this process, though, I've noticed that you've deleted many of the relevant architectural style categories that I've attached to the mills. On what basis? Bmzuckerman (talk) 22:55, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

For your first point, I understand that you'd like to organize your photos in a way that's also useful outside Commons. Rather than categorizing them to do this (as the separation of user categories is a pretty hard rule), I recommend creating a gallery, which you can customize your needs. I'm happy to show you how to do this.

For your second point (and your most recent comment), when you have a category for a specific mill, categories for the location and architecture should go only in the category for a mill, and not on the specific images. For example, File:Forestdale Mill, North Smithfield (gutted by fire).jpg should not go in Category:North Smithfield, Rhode Island, because Category:Forestdale Mill, North Smithfield is already in the location category. There's no information lost; the information is just kept at the level of the mill category so that it doesn't have to be duplicated on every file. Does that make sense? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:01, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your offer to help me create a gallery. I'd welcome your assistance.

I've tried to incorporate your stipulations in a sample upload for: "Hebronville Mill, Attleboro, MA." I'd appreciate your reviewing it and letting me know whether it's a template I can use moving forward. Bmzuckerman (talk) 21:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I've created a sample gallery for you at User:Bmzuckerman/Gallery. You should be able to add additional sections and images This help page on Wikipedia may be useful if you want to modify some of the ways that images are displayed. Take careful note of the syntax that is used.

I've made a few changes to the category, which you can see here. (For that diff view, the left column shows the previous version with changes highlighted, and the right column shows the new version with the changes highlighted.) In detail:

• When you add categories to an image or category using HotCat (the fields at the bottom of the page), you only need to enter the category name into the box. HotCat automatically turns this into the Wikitext that gets added to the page. For example, to place something in Category:Hebronville Mill, Attleboro, MA, you would just enter the text Hebronville Mill, Attleboro, MA into the box. It looks like you've been entering [[Category:Hebronville Mill, Attleboro, MA]] into the box, which causes the stray instances of [[Category: that I removed.
• In this case, there were existing categories for the village (Category:Hebronville, Massachusetts), and for buildings in Attleboro, so I moved the category from Category:Attleboro, Massachusetts to those more specific categories. Not all places will have more specific categories like this, but it's worth checking.
• This mill is also on the National Register, so I added two categories related to that.

For the images of the mill, any categories that Category:Hebronville Mill, Attleboro, MA is added to should not be added to the files. (This is discussed in COM:OVERCAT that I linked to above.) As I mentioned before, this is not removing any information from the images, because the information is in the parent category. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:22, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Mr. administrator, for your ongoing assistance. I look forward to exploring the gallery that you've been kind enough to create for me.

Concerning the "template" that I provided for the Hebronville Mill, I understand and appreciate what you've done concerning the geographic locations as well as the National Register listing. I'll have no problem following these approaches going forward.

I do have one concern, though, regarding whether or not to add categories to the individual photo files. As you've reworked things, I see that you left the category for "Textile mills in Massachusetts" for my "Hebronville Mill" category, but stripped that category from each of my three photo files of that mill. I consider the end result to be less than optimal. I'm pleased, of course, that my "Hebronville Mill" shows up in the alphabetical sub-category listings under "Textile mills in Massachusetts." I'm dismayed, however, to see that none of my three images show up among the images displayed below. Ideally, I'd like users to be able to scan these images and find my three among them. I've discovered that for that to happen, I have to add a category for "Textile mills in Massachusetts" to each of the individual photo files (which I'm obviously happy to do). Is it too much to ask for for my "Hebronville Mill" images to show up BOTH in the sub-category listing AND in the images below? Bmzuckerman (talk) 22:59, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there's not - COM:OVERCAT is pretty strict on that point. The reason for that policy is to prevent broader categories from having large numbers of files. If every single file in the subcategories under Category:Massachusetts was also in that category, for example, it would be clogged with hundreds of thousands of files. Having files placed only in the most specific categories is the only way to keep the category system organized enough to be useful.

I understand and empathize with you wanting your work to be visible, and I'm sorry that it's not possible to accommodate your request. You're more than welcome to post at Commons:Village pump, where other users might have helpful suggestions. Best, Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I also noticed the stray [[Category: [[Category: [[Category:]] ]] ]], for instance, and have been removing them. Faolin42 (talk) 15:46, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for such mistakes. I appreciate your efforts to correct them. 2601:8A:4100:ECC0:1B1:8BC0:C804:5AB9 20:27, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Category:Killington,_Connecticut

I think Category:Killington,_Connecticut should actually be Killingly, Connecticut. Faolin42 (talk) 15:33, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

You’re absolutely correct. Thanks for catching this mistake. I see that my three photos of the Ballouville Mill are currently showing up on the Killingly page. Is it possible to correct the file name for each image? Or, to do so, must I upload them again? 2601:8A:4100:ECC0:1B1:8BC0:C804:5AB9 20:22, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

You can request the rename by clicking the 'move' tab just above the file name. Then you can enter the new name, select a reason of 1-original uploader's request, enter a brief justification, then click the Request Renaming button. Faolin42 (talk) 20:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Existing categories

Are Category:Lancaster_Mills,_Clinton,_MA and Category:Lancaster_Mills the same category? Faolin42 (talk) 15:58, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Many of the photos in the Category:Lancaster_Mills are from Lancaster, SC, Lancaster, PA and Lancaster, UK. 2601:8A:4100:ECC0:1B1:8BC0:C804:5AB9 20:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Currently Category:Lancaster_Mills is only used for the mills in Clinton Massachusetts. Much like the name of the related article on wikipedia is just Lancaster Mills. But I see what you mean, there are other Lancaster Mills in the world, and they could accidentally be categorized into Category:Lancaster_Mills. That happens. I'm not sure what the guidelines are on disambiguation. Faolin42 (talk) 21:09, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, I think Category:Ayer_Mills,_Lawrence,_MA and Category:Ayer_Mills are the same category. Faolin42 (talk) 16:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Correct again! I’ve been endeavoring to avoid making duplicate categories, but evidently slipped up here. Is there something I should do to rectify this mistake? Or, is that in the hands of an administrator? 2601:8A:4100:ECC0:1B1:8BC0:C804:5AB9 20:26, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

What I do is figure out which category to keep as the official one, then recategorize the files into that category, leaving behind an empty category. Then I remove all the categories from the empty discarded category, and add a redirect to the category I'm keeping. Category:Riverdale,_Massachusetts is an example of such a redirect, after I moved files into Category:Riverdale,_Gloucester. There's also a 'move' tab at the top. Not sure what that does, but it may be the same thing I'm doing manually. Faolin42 (talk) 21:02, 10 September 2023 (UTC)