Template talk:PD-Meyers-pages

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What if pages don't follow the standard numbering system?[edit]

Some of the pages here end in -a or similar because they are inserts showing illustrations. Is there any way for the template to accomodate these? Valentinian (talk) 17:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See examples like[edit]

Image:Meyers_b5_s0380.jpg

Image:Meyers_b5_s0380a.jpg

Image:Meyers_b5_s0380b.jpg

Image:Meyers_b5_s0381.jpg

Thanks :) Valentinian (talk) 23:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The examples from Valentinian seem to work now (even the example of Mindmatrix below), but there are still others which still don't work due to the "a" problem, see e.g.

Image:Meyers_b15_s0750a.jpg

93.200.220.92 15:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Template is broken/limited[edit]

This template causes errors in some files. For example, see File:Meyers b9 s0067a.jpg. Mindmatrix (talk) 19:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • For page numbers with letters (such as "0067a" & "0067b"), specify both of the page-number parameters for the template:
{{PD-Meyers-pages|9|0067|0067b}}
Without those 2 page-number parameters, the template will attempt to calculate page numbers and cannot remove suffix "a" during the calculations. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Accessing the various volumes by page[edit]

Wikimedia Commons has all 16 books of the 4th edition of Meyers Konversationslexikon (MKL), as 16,600+ images (German text + illustrations):

(each book has ~1020 pages. Book 5 page 967 is ... b5 s0967.jpg.)

All pages are in the Category:PD_Meyers. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Need to update to auto-gen Information-template data[edit]

{{editprotected}} 07-March-2009: I need to replace the contents of the template from a new version in "User:Wikid77/Template:PD-Meyers-pages" to provide auto-generated descriptions for most of the 16,600 pages in the MKL Lexicon encyclopedia. The auto-generated Information templates will have both English and German text, plus date & author. Originally, that template was to be the entire description for each page, in an automatic manner auto-adjusting to each page. Unfortunately, some people started custom-editing hundreds of the image-pages to treat the template as only a source-box within a hard-coded Information template, expecting to someday be hand-edited into those 16,600 pages. It didn't happen (edit-burnout, of course). The solution: update the original template, as intended, to be the current automatic description for most of those 16,600 pages, which means containing the "Information" template+license (as customary in 2009). Back in 2006, all kinds of edits happened, but updating the template will correct thousands of those pages. Then, the remaining half-edited pages can be updated as time permits. Long-term, the updated template now can be used as the central format for most of those pages: update the template in the future, and most of the 16,600 pages will be "instantly" updated to reflect the future data, such as other-language translations to describe each of those 16,600 image-pages. This appears to be the typical wiki-situation where some people got "ambitious" and thought they would "eventually" hand-edit all 16,600 pages, but they burnout after a few thousand edits, totally unaware that changing the central template could have accurately updated most of the 16,600 pages, instead.

There's no hurry on this update to Template:PD-Meyers-pages, because it's been over 2.5 years of the half-edited pages. Whenever you get time, is fine with me. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain concisely what edit needs to be made to this template.  — Mike.lifeguard 00:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 03-Apr-2009: The template contents need to be replaced with User:Wikid77/Template:PD-Meyers-pages to provide the Description, Source & Date for those 16,000 pages which use the template.   Why: Because as seen in a typical page (see File:Meyers_b8_s0019.jpg), those 16,000 pages lack the basic information, as follows:
"This media has no description,..."
Bad source: http://susi.e-technik.uni-ulm.de:8080/Meyers2/index/index.html
"This media is lacking author information."
Plus, the date is missing on those 16,000 pages. Replacing the template contents will auto-generate the missing information for those 16,000 pages. I have re-updated new version User:Wikid77/Template:PD-Meyers-pages to meld the erstwhile changes that use "autotranslate" so the final template will reflect all recent updates. Thank you. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Questions[edit]

What is the exact difference between {{PD-Meyers-pages}} (in its new version on User:Wikid77/Template:PD-Meyers-pages) and {{PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage}}? Can't they be merged? --Slomox (talk) 18:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems, not all pages were uploaded by the same person. Do the pages all follow the same scheme or are there different schemes? --Slomox (talk) 18:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think {{PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage}} is the final result of all the talks. {{PD-Meyers-pages}} should be deleted after replacement on all pages or the contents of {{PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage}} could be copied to {{PD-Meyers-pages}}. Blanking all pages and replacing them with {{PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage}} and then after that deleting the {{PD-Meyers-pages}} template.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 19:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It seems the bot cleaning up the templates has to touch all pages anyways. So I suggest to give the template a completely new name like {{Meyers Konversationslexikon}}. --Slomox (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
{{Meyers Konversationslexikon}} it is. As soon as you decide to run the bot reply so I can track its edits and check for errors. :) --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:42, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It will take some time, before I run the bot. First I have to understand the whole complex of Meyers pages. --Slomox (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no need to run a bot on all 16,600 pages, perhaps just a few hundred. I would start with just replacing the contents of {{PD-Meyers-pages}} from the current contents of template User:Wikid77/Template:PD-Meyers-pages. The strategy is to allow the template to auto-gen the information-box & licensing-box for each page, then consider editing the pages that have other problems. See subtopic below: #More hand-editing is needed.

Also, for new readers, I added topic below: #Priorities: Why Meyers is important. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't produce that much text. It will only obscure the discussion.
There is no need to run a bot on all 16,600 pages I want a clear and final solution. All redundant code has to go. I haven't yet seen any page that had no redundant code.
Btw: Has anybody yet thought about converting the pages to djvu? That could reduce the number of files that need maintenance to 16 instead of 16,000. --Slomox (talk) 23:24, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Use a phased approach[edit]

8-May-09: I realize 16,600 is a lot of pages, and numerous details, plus worries about the 190 image pages, and so I suggest a phased approach:

  • Phase 1: Update the template from User:Wikid77/Template:PD-Meyers-pages.
  • Phase 2: Think about what to do next.
  • Phase 3: Perform a bot-edit, but perhaps only on volume 4 (which stops at page 536, lacking about 500 pages not yet uploaded).
  • Phase 4: Expand bot-editing to more volumes.

Over the past 4 years, "everyone" has been overwhelmed by these 16,600 pages (that's why Volume 4 still lacks 500 pages). We don't even have volumes 17+18 started yet. (Those appendix pages were written in 1891 & 1892). Because the whole effort is "Eine unendliche Geschichte", that's why no solution will really be final. Use a phased-approach, to at least, make some progress and avoid the current "paralysis of analysis". Every week, people are viewing 15,000 of those pages. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:44, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More hand-editing is needed[edit]

07-May-09: (subtopic) Most of the 16,600 pages are already correctly edited, at the top line, to invoke {{PD-Meyers-pages}}, with the correct parameters, which will auto-gen a full description in English+German, with forward/backward page links, book links, valid source URL, author, date, etc. Once the old template {{PD-Meyers-pages}} is updated from copying the current contents of the auto-gen template User:Wikid77/Template:PD-Meyers-pages, then about 99.9% of all pages would become quite accurate. Many dozens of pages would then need hand-editing to identify the illustrations on those pages, but that can be done much later. A bot would be useful to edit many of the pages, but NOT touch any page containing PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage (see topic below: #Limiting bot-edits to avoid PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage). About 500 pages are missing (in Volume 4, last page=File:Meyers b4 s0536.jpg), because they were never uploaded from the source websites. -Wikid77 20:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Limiting bot-edits to avoid PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage[edit]

07-May-09: (subtopic) Most of the pages in each volume (of about 1026 pages each), contain 2 sets of description-box data, such as: 

{{PD-Meyers-pages|5|cur=967}} <!--would auto-gen a full information-box.
{{Information
| Description= ... <!--generates a 2nd, but empty information-box.
}}

The long-term strategy (to handle all 16,600 pages) is to remove any hard-coded use of template {{Information}}, so that it can be auto-generated by {{PD-Meyers-pages}} as information changes. For example, the Meyers encyclopedia was written by dozens of specialists, whose birth-death years are on record, so the license is likely to soon become life-of-author+80-years. There would be no need to re-bot-edit those 16,600 pages, just change {{PD-Meyers-pages}} to state the author-source ref & use the 80-year licensing. Currently, pages, such as the following (in Book 5, page 967), could be bot-edited to remove the "Information" section: 

{{PD-Meyers-pages|5|cur=0967}} <!--bot keeps only this 1 line.-->
{{Information
|Description=
|Source=
|Date=
|Author=
|Permission=Author died more than 70 years ago - public domain
|other_versions=
}}
{{PD-old}}

So, only line 1 would be kept at the top, while deleting the "Information" part & "{{PD-old}}"; however, any {{ExtractImage}} should be kept, along with line 1. Some volumes don't have the line 1, such as volume 15, after page 778, then line 1 must be generated, with book number & "cur" page-number:

  • {{PD-Meyers-pages|15|cur=0779}}

All those upper pages (of Volume 15) need a similar line 1, in the long term.

The current need for bot-editing is to remove duplicate codings of template {{Information}}, in any page that already uses {{PD-Meyers-pages}}. The other template, {{PD-Meyers-MKL-textpage}} is similar to {{PD-Meyers-pages}}, but contains special parameters to customize the description, while allowing the template to be changed to announce the various authors and reset the licensing as life+80, then later life+90 years (in year 2020?), etc. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Customized hand-editing of pages[edit]

07-May-09: (subtopic) One of the junior authors of the Meyers encyclopedia lived until 1939, but scholars apparently traced his work to exclude him from the life-of-author limits. If scholars can exclude other authors, many of the 16,600 pages might soon get licensing of life+90 years. Only some pages, in that event, might need hand-editing to restrict licensing to life+70 years. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Priorities: Why Meyers is important[edit]

07-May-09: The Meyers Konversationslexikon encyclopedia (4th edition, c.1885-1890) is a well-known, illustrated encyclopedia (with some color images) which exists on Wikimedia Commons to provide public-domain data for images and German text circa 1885-1890. Two later volumes were written (not yet on Commons), from 1891 & 1892 (as appendix "update pages") but the main volumes stop at 1890. Those 16,600 page images can be used for many purposes, for example:

  • Page images can be used to illustrate old Germanic "runic" font.
  • Page images show Latin used Latin alphabet, not Germanic-runic.
  • Page images show the printing styles of Leipzig/Vienna in 1890.
  • Page images can be quoted as sources (I used Vol. 1 page 1 for WP en:A.E.I.O.U., as independent source #2 fixing "cite-needed").
  • Many pages confirm German writing used hyphenation in 1890 (using a trailing "=" sign), such as "Sauer= kraut" or "Beetho= ven" (to wrap "Beethoven").
  • Many pages confirm old German writing used "th" for modern "t".
  • The illustrations, themselves, are a sort of "Gray's Anatomy" cult-level collection of drawings from the era, showing many plant species, but also the machines and technical diagrams pre-dating 1890.

Many later editions of Meyers encyclopedia have been created (not yet public-domain), written all through the World Wars, so the current images on WM Commons also allow comparisons to those proprietary editions, as well. In short, this is a high-priority collection of images, with much current and expected future use. That's why the bother to fix 16,600 descriptions +source +date +author, +image links, etc. -Wikid77 08:45, 8 May 2009 (revised)

Readership: 15,000 pages read weekly[edit]

07-May-09: Perhaps the most surprising fact is that the whole Meyers is read on Commons, every week (well, maybe 15,000 of the 16,600 pages, in my estimate). Most pages are read by various people every week, averaging 1-6 pageviews per week. Obviously, with 16,600 total pages, individual people are not each reading all the pages each week. (Who would read 15,000+ pages in a week, anyway?) And so, the pageview stats confirm the pages are read on scattered days:

Pageview stats Vol 1 p.   1: stats.grok.se-b1_s0001.
Pageview stats Vol 1 p. 99: stats.grok.se-b1_s0099.
Pageview stats Vol 8 p.734: stats.grok.se-b8_s0734.
Pageview stats Vol 16 p.98-99: stats.grok.se-b16_s0098, stats.grok.se-b16_s0099.

Most pageviews are not consecutive pages read on one day, or by a bot-reader assigned to check each page, in sequence. No, the total of 15,000 pages (weekly) is read by 15,000 scattered reader requests.

Despite the pages being written in old German "runic" font, they tend to all be viewed, by someone somewhere, every single week. Volume 1 page 1 is read the most (File:Meyers_b1_s0001.jpg), averaging ~8 times per day. So, no text page is truly "popular" (as in modern photos viewed 100x per day); however, on balance, the entire Commons Meyers encyclopedia is being read every week. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Book number[edit]

{{editprotected}} I see book number not appearing in licence tag, though parameter "1" is not missing. E.g see File:Meyers b10 s0102.jpg in English the tag should say "This page comes from Book 10 of the 4th edition ...", but says "This page comes from Book of the 4th edition ...". Any idea what's wrong? Can it be fixed? Thanks! 195.50.205.134 09:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like I fixed it.  — Mike.lifeguard 20:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New Template Parameter #4[edit]

I've prepared a subversion of this template under:

(and I've already changed the templates-doc page to describe the new paramters use)
The fourth "skip license infos"-parameter is thought to place a separate navigation-bar directly under the image but without the license-informations.
This would be useful for plates with a huge amount of single images, each with some text to transcript in the Information-templates field "description" and thus offsetting the navigation-links out of sight at the end of all this text.
• Jaybear • ...disc. • 16:05, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PS:
The templates source-code is saying:
"This page is currently semi-protected, and can be edited only by established registered users."

Is this really true? I thought to be such an "established registered user" ...

{{Information}} template[edit]

Hi there, could someone please add a {{Information}} template to this template? Thank you, --Arnd (talk) 19:20, 18 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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