Commons talk:Copyright rules by territory/Algeria

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Updating and precision needed[edit]

Hi y'all,

Since 1962, the Algerian law changed a lot and several times. #Durations gives already a good overview but I suggest to check it and improve it (for instance change "before 1997" to "between 1962 and 1997" for clarity).

Then, the main problem is that there is (apparently) only two templates right now :

Both this templates are messy and need heavy review and seems to mix very various things. PD-Algeria is a general name and this should have a general content. Plus it applies the 2003 law to photograph or work of applied art (only!) published before 1973 ; this make no sense and seems redundant to the purpose and content of PD-Algeria-photo-except (see also this old discussion Commons_talk:Licensing/Archive_25#{{PD-Algeria}} on the same subject).

For me, the templates situation should be somethings like :

  • {{PD-Algeria-10}} (for photograph and work of applied art between 1962 and 1997, basically replacing {{PD-Algeria-photo-except}})
  • {{PD-Algeria-25}} (for most work between 1962 and 1997)
  • {{PD-Algeria-50}} (for most work after 1997, but since protection is 50 years long these work will not be PD before 1947 at best - big URAA caveat -, this template should be a red warning that something is wrong)
  • {{PD-Algeria}} would became deprecated, show a warning and ask to use one of the 3 above (like {{PD}} for instance)

Would it be ok? What do you think? (@Ruthven, Asclepias, Ellywa, Aymatth2, and Felix QW:

Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we normally split out tags like that, if there are simply some specific dates we need to list. I don't think #Durations is worded quite right. The 1997 law extended copyright non-retroactively, but I believe the new terms and provisions applied to any works still under copyright from the previous law. Any works which had previously expired remained expired. This is the usual meaning of "non-retroactive". I think the Algeria section in en:Wikipedia:Non-US copyrights has it accurately -- the terms are 50 pma or died before 1972, for movies 50 years from publication or published before 1972 (I assume applied art is the same), and photos 50 years from creation or published before 1987. The 1972 dates are now moot in Algeria, as the 25-year pause in expirations has started up again this year (authors who died in 1971 had their works expire in 1997, authors who died in 1972 expired in 2023). The 1972 dates are very important when it comes to URAA restoration though; anything which expired under the old law was not restored on the URAA date in 1998; anything which has expired since would still be under U.S. copyright. So, don't think we need to touch the photo tag. Agreed that the PD-Algeria tag should not be specific to photos; it tag should be expanded to their current 50pma general terms. It can mention date of publication instead of authors death for applied art and cinematographic works. The historical laws no longer matter inside Algeria; though the 1972 dates should be mentioned for URAA purposes. Photos should also be mentioned I guess, but point to that other tag as preferable. The photographic copyright freeze will last until 2038 I think; the line will remain 1987 for some time (other than some oddball cases of photos never published, but being more than 50 years from creation). Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:29, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Clindberg:
Sometimes, we do split like that. See {{PD-old-50}}, {{PD-old-70}}, {{PD-old-100}}, etc. Not sure if it's a good idea or not here maybe it could also be a template with several parameter (post publication or pma and date of publication/pma) like {{PD-old-auto}} ?
Indeed the wording (of both the texts and the templates) need to be reworked, glad we agree on that ;)
That said, on en:Wikipedia:Non-US copyrights, "10 pd (photos before 1987)" could be "10 pd (photos and applied art between 1962 and 1987)" and it doesn't mention some others cases (like anonymous and collective work where it's after publication and not pma, but maybe because it's kind of usual?).
Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 17:37, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, those are widely used templates across countries. Usually we split out tags if there is a separate copyright reason -- if multiple laws create a couple of particular dates that are special, we should just mention those. The specific photo tag looks good to me as-is. If applied art used to be 10 years, I guess we could add it, though that particular work type hardly ever shows up on its own. Agreed the other one is a bit of a mess, and doesn't make much sense to have both. Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:45, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't thought much about it yet, so here are only a few quick comments (which may or may not make sense). Both existing templates (PD-Algeria and PD-Algeria-photo-except) deal only with photographs (and applied art). Works such as paintings, drawings, etc., whose authors are known, and whose copyrights are based on the author's death date, use the general PD-old templates. For the present copyright status of such works today, it makes no difference that they entered the public domain 25 years after the author's death (per the 1973 law) or 50 years after the author's death (per the 1997 and 2003 laws). On Commons, they can use the PD-old templates. Anonymous works, other than photographs, can use the template PD-anon-50, even if they actually entered the public domain after 25 years. A template PD-Algeria-25 might have little use. Specific PD-Algeria templates may be required only for photographs (and applied art). The footnotes in Template:PD-Algeria-photo-except/doc/en remind that photographs published before 1987 were already in the public domain when the 1997 law came into force, whereas photographs published after 1986, and unpublished photographs created after 1972, are in copyright per the 2003 law. The present wording of the English-language version of the PD-Algeria template seems to make little sense when compared to the template PD-Algeria-photo-except. It can make a little more sense in other language versions, e.g. the first sentence of the French-language version, although its second sentence seems to ruin it. Still, it seems to have a narrow field of application, to cover photographs created before 1973 but that remained unpublished 50 years after their creation. But then, it doesn't seem to leave much room for a scenario under which such photographs can be in the public domain in the U.S., unless for photographs already covered by PD-Algeria-photo-except anyway. But I may be missing many things. -- Asclepias (talk) 19:54, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree with you (and VIGNERON) that the current PD-Algeria tag is pretty much useless, especially compared to the photo tag. If we are going to have a tag of that name, it should probably encompass all types of works -- there isn't that much to document. I guess Algeria has pretty standard 50pma terms now (and {{PD-anon-50}} for anonymous works), but it should have had a special tags for years before this since that was not the case due to the older law. Anything which expired under the old 1973 law, before the law changed in 1997, is good for the URAA though -- that might be worth keeping PD-Algeria as a separate tag. Or maybe change VIGNERION's -25 tag to be PD-Algeria-URAA, which would only document the works which became PD before the law changed in 1997, and it could also be used as a US tag since all of those works expired before the 1998 URAA date. Very little has expired since (maybe a couple things this year), and not sure we need another tag for that other than PD-old-50. If we want to keep the PD-Algeria tag and not have to migrated a lot of the works, we could just document the main 50pma terms as of now, and mention the 1987 line for photographs but mention the other two tags as preferable. 23:45, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
From hat I gather :
What do you think?
Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 07:33, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is a good idea to have this discussion and compare various possibilities. The objective being to have templates that will be the most practical to use and to understand for the readers, for the potential reusers, as well as for the contributors. Algerian works could either use a country-specific, all-purpose PD-Algeria template for all types of works; or they could continue to use a country-specific template for photos and the non-specific PD templates for the other types of works; or there could be two or more country-specific templates, e.g. one PD-Algeria-photo for photos and a PD-Algeria for other works, or a PD-Algeria-anon for anonymous, pseudonymous and collective works.
By hypothesis, if there was an all-purpose PD-Algeria template, for all types of works, what could it look like? Possibly this? (Taking inspiration from {{PD-Canada}}):
This Algerian work is in the public domain in Algeria because its copyright has expired due to one of the following:
1. it is a photograph first published before 1987, or
2. it is a photograph created more than 50 years ago, or
it is not a photograph, and
3. the creator died more than 50 years ago, or
4. it is an anonymous, pseudonymous or collective work, and it was first published more than 50 years ago.
Such template could link to the page Copyright rules by territory/Algeria for the full details, explanations and links to the law(s), or that could go in footnotes, as in the present photo-except template. (Applied art is not mentioned. It's difficult to add the notion of a free image of a PD work of applied art without complexifying the wording for a rare occurrence.)
For now, I do not have a preference about what can be the best system of templates. Ideally, many more users could comment and suggest ideas. -- Asclepias (talk) 14:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Random break[edit]

I would like a list of fairly specific templates under COM:TAG Algeria. {{PD-Algeria-photo-except}} is good. Maybe also
These could perhaps be broken down into e.g.
The idea being that an uploader can find a tag that exactly describes the work they are uploading. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:57, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Asclepias: I like your idea, we should dig in that direction.
@Aymatth2: I also like your idea of adding the date of the applying law directly into the name. That said, all the PD-Algeria-2003 will not apply before 2053 at best so it's *a bit* premature, if we create {{PD-Algeria-2003}} then it should be with a warning (or even a redirect to {{Copyvio}} ?). Same for PD-Algeria-1997.
Maybe we can combine these two ideas. Two templates: : {{PD-Algeria-1973}} and {{PD-Algeria-1997}} with a simple wording like Asclepias proposed.
Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 07:48, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The 2003 breakdown is definitely premature, although I suppose there may be a few works covered by COM:NOP Algeria under the 2003 law. Someone might want to upload a copy of a law or regulation, maybe. But I would like to break down the types of work protected under the 1973 and 1997 laws into separate templates rather than try to cover them all in one template. So {{PD-Algeria-1997-applied-art}} could cover applied art, and so on. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:05, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Aymatth2: is there « works covered by COM:NOP Algeria under the 2003 law » ? (also the article 9 and 11 are quite confusing, state works are non-commercial but laws are not protected, aren't laws state works ?)
Under the 1973 (art. 64) and 1997 (art. 60) laws, photgraphs and applied arts are together under the same duration of protection, which is repectively 10 and 50 fulls years after publication. So for 1973 law (for both extent: 1962 + 11 = 1973 and 1986 + 11 = 1998, both in the past and both PD-Algeria and PD-US), it make sense to have to template (which is {{PD-Algeria-photo-except}} already, even if it needs some reworks) but 1997 + 51 (at earliest) is 2048, definitely premature.
Cheers, VIGNERON (talk) 18:07, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think there is a template for 2003 COM:NOP Algeria. The unprotected works are defined in articles 7, 9 and 11. The first two are irrelevant, since an idea or concept cannot be uploaded and works with a non-profit restriction are no use to us. Article 11 is not inconsistent with article 9. All state works can be used for non-commercial purposes, and laws and regulations can be used freely. It is possible, but unlikely, that someone might want to upload a copy of a law, regulation, legal ruling etc..

Maybe the best way to arrange the templates is just by type of work, e.g.

The templates would summarise the laws as they apply to that sort of thing. Then the uploader can easily see the rules that apply to the type of thing they are uploading. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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