Review
(criteria)
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 Comment Very valuable set. A few comments: 1) SVG is necessary here, PNGs are pixellated at review size; 2) I've made slight corrections (typography) to the descriptions, tell me if you're not ok with that; 3) I think the scope should mention "crowns" instead of "crown"; 4) More important, the crown design (I'm thinking of the King's one, mostly) has evolved during history. It is probable that this design is representative of only one king (or a few ones). For instance, it is not the one of Louis XV. It should be identified and put in the scope. However, the illustrations are very stylized and the task may be difficult. --Eusebius (talk) 08:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Second thought: I think that with a scope like "Ancien Régime French crown designs", one would not expect the pictures to represent the exact shape of one specific crown. The scope would cover a large historical period, excluding the Empire and Restauration in the XIXth century (which would not fit with this set). The only remaining problem would be the vector format, but I guess one of the graphics labs can do something for us here. What do you think? --Eusebius (talk) 08:52, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Thank you very much for your comments and amendments. The scope changed. As a Frenchman can put a crowns according to dignity? Will changing the file format is necessary? Albertus teolog (talk) 09:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, I don't understand your question about dignity. About file format, I think it is necessary, yes (but it may be done later by the French Graphics lab, for instance). --Eusebius (talk) 10:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Another remark which would be worth an oppose: the crown of the duke (duc) is absent, and it is important. Besides, I don't get the subtlety between Prince, Prince du sang and Prince de sang royal (there used to be a Prince royal, but not during the Ancien Régime, and I'm not sure a crown has been designed for this title). Maybe one of them is the duke.
Plus, there is a vicomte but no comte? --Eusebius (talk) 09:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Duc this is Prince de sang royal (Dauphin). I understand their own so. Albertus teolog (talk) 09:54, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Prince de sang royal may be the Dauphin, that is, the first child of the king (if so, Dauphin should be put instead as it is the most common denomination) but the Dauphin and a duke are very different. Maybe the French Prince crown is the one of the dukes, but it has to be checked! --Eusebius (talk) 10:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Prince de sang royal this is the first child of the king. Prince du sang - other children king. Check, please. Albertus teolog (talk) 10:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Prince de sang royal: I have no reference for that. Prince royal is the first child of the king, but it has been used only for three people, and only after the Revolution (before that it is called Dauphin, which is the common and famous name for the title). Prince du sang designs not only the other children of the king, but also the extended family (including several dukes of France, for instance). Originally, it means the blood descendance of Louis IX, that is, every noble having a right to the throne in case of succession issue. --Eusebius (talk) 11:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Therefore, whether the names are not correct, or is bad scope? Albertus teolog (talk) 13:49, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- We have to check with the creator of the pictures what he meant, and what his sources where. Can you contact him? For me, I'll try to get help from French heraldry guys (and try to find a good heraldry book somewhere), ok? --Eusebius (talk) 13:59, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you very much. If you are able to contact the French heraldry. The author is an unattainable at this time. This is the message in the discussion Wiki. I will try. Albertus teolog (talk) 14:18, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I am concerned about the fact that several of the set images do not identify themselves as French crowns, but only typical designs for the crown of a given title. It is the case for the prince, the vidame (but are there any vidames outside France?), the marquis, the count and the king. I think we should ask the image creator about his intentions and sources. --Eusebius (talk) 11:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Is it due to the fact that some schemes are universal, this means that they do not have been used in France? (Article shows that the marquis for the British and Dutch crown were other than shown. Crown marquis clearly identified as French). Albertus teolog (talk) 14:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Maybe it was the original idea of the creator (that some schemes were universal), but I think that for crowns such as the royal one, it is too hard a generalization (even whithin a single country, royal crowns vary from one king to the other). I improve identification of the images according to the info on the Polish article (for the crowns identified as French ones). --Eusebius (talk) 14:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I guess ill said in English. Figure crown king is universal. The model is universal. For example, in Poland, each had its own king (other) crown. Albertus teolog (talk) 14:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Question Should I ask for a SVG version of these files, or do we settle the other issues beforehand? --Eusebius (talk) 11:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Info Note to self: two links describing the crowns in heraldry (may be different from the actual crowns), to be read and checked for consistency: with images, only text. Plus one, rather complete list.--Eusebius (talk) 16:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]- Info Here is my synthesis about the checking of the designs, in ascending precedence order. Unless stated otherwise, all my sources agree on what I write here. The representations appear to be valid from François Ier and the meeting of the Camp du Drap d'Or with the king of England. This famous meeting has been thoroughly described, thus producing key document in heraldry (apparently, at least - I'm not a specialist).
- MISSING: Tortil de chevalier, a simple circle which is not a crown, designed for knights without title (pictured here). I guess we can do without it, since it is not really a crown.
- "Baron de France crown": OK. Key elements are the simple circle with the pearl line.
- "Vidame crown": OK, but I've seen it only without the pearls on the crosses and between them (but this is not a very common title, so there might not be strict standards about that). The three crosses are the key elements.
- "Vicomte crown": OK, key elements are the three big points with pearls, and the two little ones (pearls too) between them (sometimes the five pearls are of equal size).
- "Comte crown": OK, key elements are the nine points with pearls, equal length (+/- perspective).
- "Marquis crown": OK. Key elements are the three leaves and six pearls (2x3).
- "French Prince crown": it is a duke (duc) crown. One single source adds a velvet hat to it, it looks uncommon to me. Key elements are the five leaves (pearls or no pearls between them). Design is ok for me, only the title must be changed.
- "Prince du Sang crown": used to be the royal crown, up to the XVIth century (when François I took a "closed" crown). After that, it is attributed to the Princes du Sang. I would keep this name. Key elements are the three fleur-de-lis and two leaves.
- "Prince de sang royal crown": it is the crown of the sons of the king (excepted the first one, the Dauphin). I have seen the name Fils de France instead of Prince de sang royal, but any is ok I guess. Key elements are the five fleur-de-lis.
- MISSING: the crown of the Dauphin. It is represented here and described in french on another source. The "arches" of the crown are dolphins, and there are only three of them (five "arches" for the king). The lower part of the crown is similar to the royal crown. I think it would be nice to have it in the set.
- "Royal crown": THIS ONE IS NOT OK. The representation here looks more ok, with the fleur-de-lis. However, the other sources say that there are only one fleur-de-lis on the top and three on the crown circle (not five as pictured here), with two leaves (fleurons in French heraldry, apparently) between them.
- If we agree on this list (without the knight thing), you tell me and I ask for the SVG versions. --Eusebius (talk) 22:35, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Result: 0 support, 0 oppose =>
undecided. -- Eusebius (talk) 11:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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