Category talk:Photographs by Willem van de Poll

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Israel[edit]

From User_talk:Djampa#Bulk_categorization_reversions_of_Willem_van_de_Poll_photographs_in_East_Jerusalem

Most of these are / should be / will be under Category:Photographs by Willem van de Poll in Israel. There are a range of years involved, from 1948 onwards.

... in Israel ·1948 ·1949·1950···1953······1960··1962·1963·1964
In 1948–1967 East Jerusalem was under Jordanian rule. To caracterise this as part of Israeli history is a bit much. I made the category [[Category:Photographs by Willem van de Poll in East Jerusalem]] and others like it, and made that part of both "Photographs by Willem van de Poll in Palestine" and "Photographs by Willem van de Poll in Jordan", as that what was is was about, IMHO. Comments? Huldra (talk) 21:04, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I like "in Israel" because it describes his trip. It's not implying anything about political geography (as "East Jerusalem, Israel") would do, it's just "Photographs by Willem van de Poll in Israel". As an overall description of his trip, I think that is still legitimate. If we sub-divide this to "Photographs by Willem van de Poll in East Jerusalem", then I think that should be accurate as to the country. Which means sub-dividing some of these by year too. Or (possibly for the best) we can simply leave it as " in East Jerusalem" if there's a conflicted overlap. If that means that we have some "..., Jordan" as sub-categories of " in Israel" then I'm OK with that – it's a brief period in Jordan, as part of his broader trip to Israel.
We do also have similar problems throughout these sets. His Dutch East Indies photographs cover periods of revolution and independence with similar changes of government. Even Poland in 1934 doesn't escape – Russia, Lithuania and the placing of borders.
It's hard, from these tens of thousands, to know just what we're dealing with until we've seen it. Having had a look at them now, do you have any feeling for what we're dealing with? Which regions within Palestine are covered? Of those, did any change hands in the period covered? Apart from East Jerusalem, was anywhere else part of Jordan? Are there any here still under British Mandatory Palestine, or are they all too late? Andy Dingley (talk) 21:34, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the pictures I have seen (and edited) all are from the West Bank in the Jordanian period, (1948–1967). The whole of the West Bank was under Jordanian rule in that period. (Basically all the pictures you see here Category:Photographs by Willem van de Poll in Palestine) It was Jordanian territory then (when van de Poll visited), it has been occupied by Israel since 1967. (He also visited "Israel proper", like Tel Aviv, in the same period. Those are unproblematic, they are of course "in Israel".) He also visited Jordan "proper" (Ie Jordanian when he visited, Jordanian today, like here, in Es Salt.)
(The British Mandate ended in 1948, and I haven't seen any pictures of him that early in the region. It looks as if he first came to the region after the 1948 war.)
IF we have a "in Israel" tag on the West Bank pictures, then we also 'should have have a "in Palestine" tag (even on, say, the Tel Aviv pictures). (I see Djampa reintroduced "Israel" in the Jordanian Es Salt picture above).
Fair enough that "in Israel" only describe his trip, but for fairness we then have to have "in Jordan and Palestine" in all the pictures, too.
I suggest we remove Israel from the West Bank and the Jordanian pictures, (so we don't have to introduce "in Jordan and Palestine" in, say the Tel Aviv, pictures.) Huldra (talk) 22:09, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To be precise: So the whole of the West Bank has changed "who rules it" since de Poll vistited, but not "Israel proper" (like Tel Aviv) or "Jordan proper" (like Es Salt).
The case with East Jerusalem is that Israel, after 1967, officially unilaterally annexed part of it, an annextion that is not recognized by any other nation on the planet. Israel has not annexed the rest of the West Bank, it is still under Israeli military occupation. That is also the case for the Israli settlements on the West Bank (though another law is in place for the Israeli settlers): it is important to note that not even the Israeli government claims that say, Hebron, or Ariel are "in Israel". (However, some extreme Israeli settlers claim so....) Huldra (talk) 22:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd suggest that you have a think what they should best be categorized into (might be the same, might not, you have a more accurate idea of the details than I do), note it here, give it a while and then just go for it. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:00, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Most of them I would just undo, ( like this,this,this, this, this) ...they are all in East Jerusalem, ie under Jordanian rule in 1950. Huldra (talk) 20:18, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would hope that they will take the invitation to discuss it here, otherwise it's simply edit-warring and blocking may be the only solution to them. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:47, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Andy Dingley, yes, they put a warning on my talk page, too, then proceeded to rv 50–60 files, most of them NOT disputed at all. (There is NO dispute that East Jerusalem was Jordanian territory in 1950). I'm giving up; where can I report them? Huldra (talk) 20:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd give them a day to respond here first. Then COM:AN/U, because repeatedly edit-warring whilst ignoring an active discussion is pretty clear. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:19, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll give them a day, Huldra (talk) 21:38, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The same issue over at Category_talk:Photographs_by_Willem_van_de_Poll_in_Mount_of_Olives,_Jerusalem,_Israel, Huldra (talk) 23:38, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, all of the following reverts have to be (wholly or partially) undone:

If I dont hear anything, I will start reverting tomorrow, Huldra (talk) 20:54, 1 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I forgot this for a few days, but nobody has objected, so I will start removeing "Israel" from the non Israeli pictures, Huldra (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright?[edit]

Why would any of these photographs be in the public domain or otherwise suitable for Commons? The photographer died in 1970. Did the Nationaal Archief obtain public domain dedications from the rightsholders and if so could we document that in some clear way over here? Haukurth (talk) 15:20, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Explained here. Haukurth (talk) 17:33, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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