Category talk:Gray

This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Gray

	Category:Gray	Move to/Rename as	Category:Grey
	"Per the title of the Wikipedia article (en:Grey) and [what?] text at the top of [which?] page."
	Crouch, Swale (talk · contribs), per original move request, 09:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Look up “gray” in
Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Look up “grey” in
Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

• Think. Don't assume that this move is a given. The Wikipedia article is not that decisive about "grey" (British English) over "gray" (American English). Someone slantily global-replaced "gray" with "grey" there, even from cited sources that actually use "gray".

I added {Wiktionary|gray} and {Wiktionary|grey} on the category page to encourage thought. - from edit comment by A876 (talk · contribs) 21:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

• Details were missing, so I edited the request. (What text, at the top of which page?) - from edit comment by A876 (talk · contribs) 21:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

• I moved the discussion here. Josh (talk) 00:39, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
• It looks as though it has been at Category:Gray since 2005. I don't see the point in moving. - Themightyquill (talk) 14:04, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I had some connection issues half-way through creating this CfD (winter weather here) and ended up unable to complete the process until now, so apologies for not making it clear exactly what was going on. @A876: Thanks for providing the extra comments in my stead and fixing the attributions. I do not think in general it is a good idea to rename a category solely on the basis of GB v. US English spelling unless the topic is exclusive to one region or the other. Colors most certainly are not regional, so I see no reason to rename this category. Josh (talk) 17:03, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
    • The question is how w:MOS:RETAIN works here? In favour of moving this it matches the WP article which is presumably there per RETAIN. Against it is that we are a separate project and not directly linked to WP meaning RETAIN might favour keeping it at the US spelling since it has always been here. I don't think Commons has a local RETAIN guideline? Note that I originally proposed that the orange category be disambiguated with "color" rather than "colour" but then noticed the WP article and changed the proposal. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:20, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
•  Support. If one English-speaking region spells it only one way and the other region spells it both ways, we should go with the spelling which is acceptable in both regions. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:28, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
• OK, I was going to withdraw this since it seems that RATAIN would apply here even if the WP article was at the other version, see w:Talk:Shades of gray#Requested move 16 October 2015 and w:Talk:Motorcycle tyre#Requested move 16 March 2015 but if Grey is acceptable in both versions per above then maybe this can be moved per w:MOS:COMMONALITY. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
•  Oppose. British spelling and American spelling categories should exist as created. It wouldn't be fair to force all categories into one or the other.--Sanya3 (talk) 22:53, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

•  Keep enwiki article is under "grey". Solution per enwiki. We can close this CFD--Estopedist1 (talk) 16:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

  @Estopedist1: Did you mean to support the proposal? Currently, enwiki is at "grey" and this category is at "gray", so keeping everything as is would not be "per enwiki". -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:34, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

  @King of Hearts sorry, my bad. Then massive renaming to be done to match enwiki "grey". I am also pinging @Themightyquill@Sanya3@Joshbaumgartner@Crouch, Swale. But before massive renaming, we should be sure that "grey" shouldn't be reserved to the disambiguation page in Commons Estopedist1 (talk) 16:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

 Keep as Category:Gray. It is easy to get them switched, but it has been 'gray' and it was proposed to move it to 'grey'. Enwiki is not our guide, it is up to that community to name their articles and categories appropriate to their own conventions. Commons supports all language wikis and more, so while we do favor English-language category names, enwiki does not decide our conventions for such names. In cases where English spellings differ, and the topic is not regional (such as this one), American English is preferred (e.g. Category:Colors, not Category:Colours). (previous comment struck as it was based on the inactive Commons:Naming categories which is not current policy). I do agree that sub-categories should be standardized to match the parent. Josh (talk) 23:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

American English isn't preferred if as far as I'm aware as with Wikipedia. As I said I would have withdrawn this but it seems both spellings are acceptable in American English which is why I didn't. If 1 version is only acceptable in 1 variant of English and the other is acceptable in both we generally prefer the version that is acceptable in both even if its less common than the other. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

I personally spell it "grey" but as I said above, if it has been at "gray" since 2005, I don't see the point in moving it. I believe Wikipedia simply uses the rule that whoever starts the article gets to choose the regional spelling - it's not as if they have any strong logical argument for grey over gray. - Themightyquill (talk) 07:54, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

• I prefer "Grey" (I learned British English at school). But most important to me is that there will be a decision, because now it is a mess, see subcategories of this category and of Category:Gray impressions, where there are even double categories for the same concept (see for instance Category:Grey impressions in Germany). So the question is indeed: Would "Grey" be acceptable for US English speakers or would "Gray" be acceptable for UK English speakers? --JopkeB (talk) 06:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

• • @JopkeB: I'm sorry, but I do not think the question is one of what is acceptable (we should not empower the heckler's veto), but rather what communicates clearly and concisely. Both gray and grey are readily recognizable to all English speakers and while partisan backers of one spelling or the other will no doubt rebel at having it written the opposite way, I don't think that is a valid reason to constantly argue whether it should be changed back and forth. If the issue were truck vs. lorry, a case could be made that many people could read lorry and have no idea what you are talking about, but read truck and know exactly what the topic is (or vice-versa). I don't think the same can be said for gray versus grey, so therefore there is no pressing need to adopt one or the other. Since it has basically been Category:Gray for over a decade, just leave it be. Renaming a file/article/category that covers a general topic (not regionally specific to US or UK) from American to British English or vice-versa should not be done merely for its own sake. Arguments over which one is 51%-49% more common/used/popular/etc. can be interminable and thus renaming back and forth would become a never-ending waste of time and resources. That said, there IS a pressing need to harmonize naming per the Universality Principle and so the children of the parent category should be named the same as the parent category. Thus, regardless of whether the parent category is gray or grey, the subcategories should match its spelling. Josh (talk) 08:37, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

• • Thanks, Josh, for your extensive response. You probably are right.

 Agree with: (1) Keep Category:Gray. (2) Harmonize the names of the children and grandchildren (and so on) of this category, but only the categories, not the files and articles.

How can we go on? Can the two of us decide that this is the outcome of this discussion and implement these conclusions? --JopkeB (talk) 16:39, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

@JopkeB: It seems pretty clear to me there is no consensus on making a name change to the parent category. I haven't seen any objection to applying the Universality Principle to the sub-cats as that is an established policy, but that wasn't the main thrust of this discussion. I suppose we should let it stay open for another couple weeks (per normal closing policy) in case anyone has input regarding the latest comments, but if there is nothing more by that point, I would be happy to close it with a conclusion of no consensus to rename, and standard policy can be implemented on the sub-cats. If there is any concern about the second part, I'd still close this one as for the parent category name, but open a new CfD for harmonizing the subs. Hopefully, however, that won't be necessary. Josh (talk) 18:56, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Seems a good plan to me. So if there is no objection about renaming the subcategories, consequently all subcategories would get "Gray" in the name (because the main category will stay "Gray"), is that right? JopkeB (talk) 04:22, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner, Crouch, Swale, A876, Themightyquill, King of Hearts, Sanya3, and Estopedist1: Can we conclude that:

1. The name of this category stays "Gray" and this discussion can be closed?
2. We can rename subcategories to "Gray" if they have now "Grey" in the name?

Then we can go on and clear up the mess of the subcategories. JopkeB (talk) 08:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@JopkeB: Fully agreed. Good to put this one to bed. Josh (talk) 08:49, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

---

This category discussion has been closed.
Consensus	Resolved by consensus
Actions	Keep Category:Gray + Rename subcategories to "Gray" if they have now "Grey" in the name
Participants	Crouch, Swale (talk · contribs) A876 (talk · contribs) Themightyquill (talk · contribs) King of Hearts (talk · contribs) Sanya3 (talk · contribs) Estopedist1 (talk · contribs) JopkeB (talk · contribs)
Closed by	Josh (talk) 19:58, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Feedback/state of affairs about the renaming

@Crouch, Swale, A876, Themightyquill, King of Hearts, Sanya3, Estopedist1, and Joshbaumgartner: I did a lot of the renaming, but I skipped:

• categories with "Grey" as a proper name: they should not be renamed
• subcategorieën of Category:Gray vehicles by brand - far too many to do by one person; I hope others will pick this up
• many categories with "grey" in the category name but without a parent with "grey" in the category name (I worked top down through the category tree, so I did not see them; after a search I changed already a lot, but not all, too many); this involves (among many others) categories about Trains and buses in the United Kingdom by livery
• Category:BSicon/railway/set grey + subcategories, for technical reasons, see Category talk:BSicon/railway/set grey.

Problems with templates:

• Most of the subcategories of Category:By color navigational templates should still be adjusted, some I could do myself, but I have not enough knowledge of templates to do them all. The problem is, that now "Gray" and "Grey" both are in the navigation line, though "Grey" links to the redirect, what I think is not desirable, I think only "Gray" should be shown. See for instance Category:Wallpapers by color.
• Antarctica dissappeared from the template {{Continents|prefix=:Category:SVG locator maps of countries of|suffix=(gray globe scheme)}} and related templates after I changed "grey" to "gray", see for instance Category:SVG locator maps of countries of South America (gray globe scheme).

Could someone look into these issues? --JopkeB (talk) 05:11, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

@JopkeB: Excellent work. I agree that there are a ton in the vehicle categories that will just have to filter down as it is a bit much for one user to do. I agree with your exemptions, some of them may be right to change but can be done in time. I can certainly look into the templates and do what I can there. I do know that while the matter was unresolved, the templates were designed to support multiple options for the same color. I know we had this in some country lists (Ireland/Republic of Ireland, for example) but this was likewise deemed undesireable for the same reasons you bring up. It will be a few days however before I have the time to really sit down and do that part. Josh (talk) 04:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Josh, for your reaction and the compliment. I am glad you will look into this, take your time. JopkeB (talk) 12:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Data from corpuses

corpus	gray	grey
https://www.english-corpora.org/now/	291835	336439
https://www.english-corpora.org/iweb/	331824	354014

therefore, "grey" should be used as long as the category name is "region-neutral". "gray" should be used only if it's a category specific to a region where "gray" is the more common spelling. RZuo (talk) 06:49, 11 April 2023 (UTC)