Category talk:Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958)

Images decategorized

How is it possible to do something like this, decategorizing all the images that were categorized and leaving only one in this (unecesseray) new category? SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:15, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

CFD

This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Maria Pavlovna (Princess of Sweden)

Change of name of article as she was never a Swedish Princess and had she have been, she would have lost the title after her divorce ImperialArchivesRU (talk) 22:27, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@ImperialArchivesRU: Please propose a correct alternative name for this category. Josh (talk) 23:42, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: I propose it to be titled ‘Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890)’ or even ‘Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958)’ as her Wikipedia page is also titled as en:Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958). ImperialArchivesRU (talk) 07:08, 01 October 2019 (UTC)

all the Russian princesses with their hard big names are listed in Commons categories simply by their names, see Category:Grand Duchesses of Russia, without that "Grand Duchess". She could be renamed as Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) or, like her aunt Category:Maria Pavlovna (Grand Duchess of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach) -- Maria Pavovna (Duchess of Södermanland) . --Shakko (talk) 12:47, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

@Shakko: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna was only The Duchess of Södermanland for six years of her life as she was no longer a Swedish Royal, member of the Swedish Royal Family or held a Swedish title after her divorce so its only appropriate that the category title is as: ‘Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890)’, ‘Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958)’ as using just her name does not give the reader the impression of whether she is a Princess or Grand Duchess ImperialArchivesRU (talk) 22:17, 01 October 2019 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna was only The Duchess of Södermanland for six years of her life as she was no longer a Swedish Royal, member of the Swedish Royal Family or held a Swedish title after her divorce so its only appropriate that the category title is as: ‘Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890)’, ‘Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958)’ as using just her name does not give the reader the impression of whether she is a Princess or Grand Duchess. ImperialArchivesRU (talk) 15:46, 09 October 2019 (UTC)

Move to Category:Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958). - Themightyquill (talk) 15:40, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

@ImperialArchivesRU, Shakko, and SergeWoodzing: Any objections to the proposal by Themightyquill (talk · contribs)? Josh (talk) 23:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Oppose Another unnecessary category move. Solve by redirect rather than move! After 1918, Maria's imperial title was no longer legally valid. Claiming that she never was a princess of Sweden, though she married a prince of that kingdom, is just not accurate. That kingdom still exists legally today. Her highest title as still a legal title today, was Princess of Sweden while she was married to Wilhelm. That - the still legally valid title - is more noteworthy than anything else her name ever has been given as. That, and her title as Duchess of Södermanland, are what she gave up to divorce the prince due to the me-too-like sleaziness of Dr. Munthe against her. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

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If you are okay with a redirect to Category:Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958), that's fine me. Themightyquill (talk) 05:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Support @SergeWoodzing: Regardless of whether it was legally valid or not, you will find that throughout her life in most sources (official and news) she was referred to as Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna which regardless of being in exile from Russia after the abolishment of monarchy there, she did not cease to be a Russian Grand Duchess and nor was she a member of the Swedish Royal Family holding any Swedish titles from the moment she divorced, I understand you want to to take control of everything related to the Swedish Royal Family, however rather than making it complicated, I’d suggest to leave them with the name/title they are known as. You will also find her Wikipedia Pages named en:Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) etc..., which pretty much makes sense when connected to the commons wiki rather than a whole new title which she only held for a few years. @Themightyquill: I’ve created the Category (Category:Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958)) including her title so as to differentiate between the Russian Grand Duchesses and the Russian Princesses. Rereader1996 (talk) 02:21, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@Rereader1996: Are you okay with moving content to the neutral Category:Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) but leaving redirects from all the other titles above? I'd generally prefer that commons categories not use honorifics - it's not about this person in particular. - Themightyquill (talk) 07:45, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue to respond to input by any user who resorts to rude and unfair accusations like "I understand you want to to take control of everything related to the Swedish Royal Family". --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: Just to be clear, it was Rereader1996 who said that, not me. - Themightyquill (talk) 21:23, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: I believe that the suggestion for redirecting to Category:Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) was originally made by Shakko (talk · contribs) and Themightyquill (talk · contribs). I agree that the move by Rereader1996 (talk · contribs) of the nominated category to their desired name while in the middle of this discussion was completely inappopriate and it is going to take a bit of work to restore without losing the page history. However, it would be good to consider the suggestion of Shakko and Themightyquill independent of the tactics employed by Rereader1996. Josh (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Thank you both! I agree on the principle: no title. I also stand by my opppose above because it is not necessary to move any category that has a justifiable name. That too is principally important. Redirects will suffice. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:35, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Themightyquill (talk · contribs) is absolutely correct that this is not an issue about one individual, but a general approach to how we name categories for individuals on Commons. We use Category:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom instead of "Queen Elizabeth II", Category:Barack Obama instead of "President Barack Obama", and Category:Norman Schwarzkopf instead of "General Norman Schwarzkopf", to illustrate a few. If disambiguation is needed, we add the dab info in () after the name. Adding honorifics, titles, styles, orders, etc. before or after the name clutters the category structure and serves little valuable purpose for the project. It simply is not needed and causes problems, so should be avoided. Josh (talk) 19:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@Themightyquill: Sure, I have no issue with that as long as it’s changed considering she ceased to be a Princess of Sweden by marriage after her divorce in addition to being known as ‘Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia’. Rereader1996 (talk) 13:44, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: In what sense is it rude though? Especially when you’re evidently trying to remove factual edits based on official statements correlating with the page names of the individual’s Wikipedia Pages too, as we have a also seen regarding ‘Princess Birgitta of Sweden’ whom you’re adamant to refer to as ‘Birgitta of Hohenzollern’ or ‘Birgitta von Hohenzollern’ or whatever you’re assuming she’s titled, though I’ll just leave that for the discussion page. Rereader1996 (talk) 13:44, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: The Category names of most monarchs (Emperors/Empresses and Kings/Queens) generally don’t have their titles included as per the example you have included with Category:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, other exmamples being Category:Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden, Category:Michael I of Romania or Category:Margrethe II of Denmark: however ordinary members of the Imperial/Royal families are named both on Wikipedia and Commons with their official and most senior title including the title which precedes their name (Prince or Princess/Duke or Duchess/Count or Countess) followed by either the family name or the place of territorial designation, unless they have a royal title of nobility, such as Category:Prince William, Duke of Cambridge which is why for junior members of an Imperial/royal family who are not a monarch we should at least have the same names/titles of individuals correlating to their Wikipedia name; for instance on the subject who was a Russian Grand Duchess by birth: en:Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958) whereas your example of the category name of former President ‘Barack Obama’s or General ‘Norman Schwarzkopf’ not including their titles being because the individuals held a title which was granted by their office and not by birth, which also ceased when they were out of office; you will also find that ‘honorifics, titles, styles, orders, etc.’ have not been mentioned and nor have been included so you won’t find the “problems” within the category names arising. Rereader1996 (talk) 13:44, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

I object to the move because it is not necessary, as clarified above. No further comments. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:20, 24 January 2020 (UTC) Support As already stated, I completely agree with this move and propose this CFD to have come to a conclusion. Rereader1996 (talk) 09:08, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

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More than three years have passed since the last comments were made, and I am making an executive decision here. The category was summarily renamed by Rereader1996 to Category:Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna of Russia (1890–1958). However, this user was perma-blocked for being a sockpuppet of ImperialArchivesRU, who started this request, so that should never have happened. On the other hand, as such a long time has passed and no one has moved the category to something else, that can be construed as consensus that the new name is acceptable. As such, I am closing this request. If there are any objections, please feel free to start a new CFD. —holly {chat} 22:33, 28 April 2023 (UTC)