Category talk:Flags of the Palaiologos dynasty

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About the Bs[edit]

Since it is becoming quite difficult to follow what is the symbol of the Byzantin flag, I have compiled all historical sources with the different models below:

  1. Bs, rounded, toward the outside: File:20131205 Istanbul 131.jpg, File:Testone Guglielmo II Paleologo.jpg, File:Portolan chart of Guillem Soler (c.1380, Paris) Black Sea.jpg, File:1375 Atlas Catalan Abraham Cresques, Sea of Marmara.jpg, File:Gonzaga Armonial.jpg, File:Denaro of Domenico Gattilusio.jpg, File:Libro del conocimiento - Bibliotheca Digital Hispanica.pdf p. 49 (?), File:Portolan chart of Guillem Soler (c.1380, Paris) Black Sea.jpg
  2. Bs, toward the outside: File:Johannes V 1742.jpg, File:Portolan chart of Guillem Soler (c.1380, Paris) Black Sea.jpg
  3. Bs, rounded, toward the inside: File:Crusaders attack Constantinople - Detail of Constantinople.jpg, File:Casale monferrato, castello dei paleologi 02 stemma.jpg
  4. Bs, (rounded?) all toward the left: File:'Liber secretorum fidelium crucis' by Marino Sanudo with maps by Pietro Vesconte - Map of Eatern Europe, Byzantine Empire.jpg
  5. Stylised Bs, all toward the left: File:Harleian Ms6163 Emperour of Constantynenople arms.gif
  6. Bs, (rounded?) all toward the right: File:Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, Pal. lat. 1362 A, fol. 3v-4r.jpg
  7. Crescent moons: File:The Segar's Roll.jpg
  8. Firesteels: File:LDAM (f. 012v) Rei de Palialogres.jpg, File:Teller Allianzwappen Habsburg Gonzaga KGM F824b.jpg, File:Bottega di don pino (leonardo bettisi), fiasca da pellegrino con stemmi gonzaga-asburgo, 1582 ca.jpg, File:Portolan chart of Gabriel de Vallseca (1447).jpg (?)
  9. ???: File:Libro del conocimiento - Bibliotheca Digital Hispanica.pdf p. 46-47, File:Armorial de Gilles Le Bouvier - BNF Fr4985 f21r.jpg, File:Gabriel Vallseca. Museo Marítimo, Barcelona.1439.jpg

@Cplakidas: @AnonMoos: @Dragovit: @Ichthyovenator: I ping you since you seem interested in the subject. What do we do with all those information? Veverve (talk) 02:11, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, images created by users (i.e. not historical images) in Category:Arms of Bourbon-Parma (1847) and Category:Coats of arms of Mantua (1575) use exclusively the firesteels. Veverve (talk) 03:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Veverve, that is indeed valuable to have all in one place. I am not sure that categorizing the portolans under the lags of the Palaiologos dynasty category is sensible, but we could create a gallery page for Depictions of the tetragrammic cross or something similar, and use this as a reference point (useful for the en:Byzantine flags and insignia article and any other interested party). Constantine ✍ 07:52, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: You said: the firesteels in the later Western arms are quite correct; the Bs were interpreted this way early on (the term is used even in a Byzantine source, and the Serbian cross, which is obviously derived from it and has 'open' letters similar to a C or crescent, is attested already in the late 14th century) and the arms should remain as they are, as they represent the final shape of the design. Since it is here that all discussions are centralized, I will answer you here. I am not sure to follow, are the representations of the Byzantine Palaiologos flag with firesteels mistakes or are do they represent later designs? From what I read here, both designs seem possible, but the firesteels are less likely. Veverve (talk) 13:29, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The firesteels were initially probably interpretations of the Bs in Western sources (although, as said, at least one Byzantine source also refers to them), as the Bs were shown more open (like a mix between 'C' and 'E'). In Western sources from the 15th century on, the Palaiologan design appears quite often as firesteels (e.g. File:LDAM (f. 012v) Rei de Palialogres.jpg, [1]). In so far as I am aware, there is no Western heraldic design from the Italian families that incorporated the Byzantine arms into their own achievement that used the Bs, but always only the firesteels. In this sense, the arms should continue to depict the firesteels, and not be retroactively 'corrected' to their original Byzantine model. --Constantine ✍ 16:27, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cplakidas: There is this Western, 15th-century design of File:Testone Guglielmo II Paleologo.jpg which uses rounded Bs. I also agree we should not correct retroactively the designs when they depict the historical, corrupted Bs. However, those designs, like any design, need to be supported by a source; some images are clearly reusing the corrupted, previous version of File:Byzantine imperial flag, 14th century, square.svg despite what their source(s) say(s), and the those images which reused without adapting it to what the source says, I believe, need to be corrected. Veverve (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Veverve: I have tried to explain this to Constantine (Cplakidas) in another discussion, that his current version with the corrected B seems to me more as a reconstruction based on multiple sources than as a reproduction of a certain image. This is because it still refers to the Catalan atlas as its source, which is no longer true. The description of the files may change, but previous versions will still be in the change history. If the corrected flag was uploaded as a new file with a reference to another source, it could prevent this, but it doesn't matter now. --Dragovit 9:18, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
@Dragovit: It was also my point, but he is the creator, so by courtesy I am not going to force a history split unless I feel compelled. Veverve (talk) 09:12, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I found this image of rouded Bs on the Facebook of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. It is very likely in Istanbul, but I do not know where, and it is not indicated. Veverve (talk) 18:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it appears the Church of Greece uses a design of the flag with stylised, rounded Bs, smaller white letters on the edges, and an eagle with the cross and Bs design at the center, at the outside of the residence of archbishop Ieronymos (here the building is identified as the "Orthodox Archbishopric in Athens").
See the images here, here ("Police subdue priest who shouted 'heretic' at Pope", Associated Press), here, here (direct link), here (direct link). I cannot seem to find shot of the flag where the whole flag can be seen. Veverve (talk) 05:14, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Corrections[edit]

@Cplakidas: @AnonMoos: @Dragovit: @Ichthyovenator: @Kathisma: File:Stemma del marchesato del Monferrato.svg uses File:Testone Guglielmo II Paleologo.jpg as model, but File:Stemma del marchesato del Monferrato.svg still has firesteels instead the rounded Bs its model does. This should be fixed and it uncontroversial.
File:Quintini-Paleologo.png also needs to be corrected; the first source is File:Stemma del marchesato del Monferrato.svg (which should be corrected), and the second uses Bs and not firesteels. File:Quintini-Paleologo.png should also be fixed therefore, and this correction is also uncontroversial. Veverve (talk) 20:11, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Cplakidas already responded in regards to the later Western arms on his talk page, writing "the firesteels in the later Western arms are quite correct; the Bs were interpreted this way early on (the term is used even in a Byzantine source, and the Serbian cross, which is obviously derived from it and has 'open' letters similar to a C or crescent, is attested already in the late 14th century) and the arms should remain as they are, as they represent the final shape of the design". I will of course support anything that is mutually agreed, but it doesn't look like this has been resolved yet. Ichthyovenator (talk) 20:21, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ichthyovenator: I took note of Cplakidas' remarks and removed the more recent arms which used firsteels from my original list. However, all the sources you used for the two images currently listed in this topic (i.e. "Corrections") use Bs. Veverve (talk) 22:08, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Veverve: I have corrected the two arms that I have uploaded to use B:s instead of firesteels.
I'd also like to suggest that a version with the firesteels be retained in some form (or uploaded as a new image so as to not interfere with the corrections), since the page on Byzantine flags and insignia on Wikipedia now discusses the different interpretations (B:s vs. firesteels) but only shows the B:s (and a version with the B:s instead interpreted as firesteels could be shown for commentary purposes, especially given that the firesteel version overwhelmingly prevails in popular culture). Ichthyovenator (talk) 20:08, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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