File talk:Tang (616-710).png

This map is incorrect and misleading - it shows Tibet as part of the Chinese empire during the Tang. It definitly was NOT part of the Chinese empire then.John E. Hill 07:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Tibetan kind was -according to the Cambridge history of China- vassal of the tang from 641 to 670. Please take a look on "Cambridge history of China, Ch.4 : T'ai-tsung (626-49) the Consolidator. H.J. WECHSLER. Yug (talk) 08:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

How can you say that Tibet was a vassal of China when Tibet captured Chang'an, the Chinese capital in 763/764? See Wikipedia article on History of Tibet for a start - and there are many other references I could give to this fact. John E. Hill 10:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can say that, for 641 to 670. I will never claim the same for 763/764, which is one undred years after, in a time were Thibet is clearly an antogonist of the Chinese Empire. Yug (talk) 13:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear Yug - I don't want to make a big issue of all this but the map does not make it clear that Tibet was definitely not a Chinese vassal for most of the time between 616 and 710 - it was only for about 20 to 28 years, at the most, that one could make this claim and, even then, it was probably more of a nominal rather than real vassalage, because China did not have troops in or any control over Tibet, which was a very powerful state at this period.

The rest of the time Tibet was very definitely not only independent, but mostly hostile to China. I know you have just marked the period of Tibet recognising China as 641 to 670, but even this is not quite correct. According to the Tangshu and the Xin Tangshu (See: Pelliot's Histoire ancienne du Tibet, pp. 7, 85-86; and Lee's English translation in The History of Early Relations between China and Tibet from the Chiu t'ang-shu, pp. 15-16), the Tibetans were arguing with the Touyuhuan from 661-666 during which time the Chinese could not make up their mind which side to support. During the Zongzhang period (668 to 670) the Chinese deliberated whether to send an army against the Tibetans (Pelliot, pp. 85-86) and, finally, the Tibetans got angry and totally defeated the Touyuhuan (probably in 669). In 670 the Tibetans invaded and conquered 18 vassal states of the Chinese including Khotan and Aksu and the "Four Garrisons" of the Chinese in the Tarim Basin, which they then held for a very long time (Pelliot, p. 86).

So, I think your map should show Tibet only as a nominal vassal for the period from 641 to 661, or, perhaps, to 669, at the latest. I believe it should also make it clear that Tibet was totally independent for the rest of the period 616-710. I hope I haven't made things too difficult for you. Best wishes, John E. Hill 23:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)