File talk:Flag of Brischan.svg

Renaming request

{{Rename|1=Breshk.svg|2=2|3=Drapeau attribué à Brischan / Brisch (Breshk) une localité que le Book of All Kingdoms situe proche de Béjaïa et L'Atlas Catalan entre Cherchell et Ténès en Algérie : https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/dz_pir.html|user=Waran18}}

This file is massively used. Historical flags says that "Flag of the Kingdom of Ait Abbas". We need more sources to confirm the fact. @Waran18, Kabyle20, and Alkari: --Estopedist1 (talk) 14:33, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

For the only source, it's flag form the city of Brischan / Brisch (Breshk) and not "Flag of the Kingdom of Ait Abbas". BR.----Waran18 (talk) 15:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

@Waran18: Sorry, I just declined your renaming request for at least one question. You wanted to rename the file to Breshk. Please tell me, what language is Breshk? And what are the other names Brischan or Brisch, so I didn't find any of this names on maps near Béjaïa. Please let's discuss on this subject. Thank you, – Doc Taxon • Talk • 20:22, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@Monsieur Patillo: sorry, I just declined your renaming request, because the file does not show a blason, but a flag (drapeau). Please tell me, what Bershek is and where to find on maps please. Let's discuss about renaming please. – Doc Taxon • Talk • 20:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I found the article fr:Breshk. There's one thing. It looks really like it is the flag of Breshk. The file is put into many articles meaning the Beni Abbas Kingdom. If we rename the article to File:Flag of Breshk.svg or similar, it will affect those Beni Abbas Kingdom articles too. @SpinnerLaserzthe2nd, Espandero, Waran18, and Monsieur Patillo: please let's think about how we continue with this problem. Do you know French Wikipedia users who have more knowledge about it? Any ideas? Thank you – Doc Taxon • Talk • 10:47, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Doc Taxon:

The issue is that there are no references in fr:Breshk saying that this flag is the one of this old city. So, let's be careful in this renaming. I will recommend waiting for references for both (Beni Abbas Kingdom or Breshk city). --Poudou99 (talk) 13:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

@Poudou99: According to Flags of the World there's a source in the book Libro del Conosçimiento de todos los Regnos et Tierras et Señorios que son por el Mundo, et de las señales et armas que han. – Doc Taxon • Talk • 20:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

@Doc Taxon: .

As a file renamer (I regularly process the list Category:Media requiring renaming), I have not renamed this file because - like you initialy - I did not see any valid arguments.

I don't have access to this source (Flags of the World), so I let you decide.

However, I have seen many flags in Commons falsely assigned to kingdoms or dynasties that ruled Algeria before Ottomans (or fictitious / fake). There are a lot of disputes on this matter. So I'm careful. --Poudou99 (talk) 23:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I already saw the Algeria dynasty problems too. I'd like to know why there are so many falsely assigned Algeria flags here in Commons. – Doc Taxon • Talk • 06:58, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Many reasons : Attempts to rewrite the history of the present Maghreb countries through old flags. Nationalism. Anachronisms. Ideological annexations of historical territories by people living in the present Maghreb countries. And vandalism. --Poudou99 (talk) 07:40, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Poudou99 this is source. The first person made a mistake, the others followed, they used this flag everywhere without reason. Waran18 (talk) 08:36, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Waran18: good. --Poudou99 (talk) 09:11, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Consequences of the renaming

In French.

@Waran18: Tu as vu que ce drapeau est actuellement utilisé par un très grand nombre de page Wikipedia (et dans plusieurs langues). Cela sera un gros travail d'examiner ces pages unes par unes et de les adapter en conséquence. --Poudou99 (talk) 09:11, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Oui, le souci c'est que le premier qui a uploadé a commis un erreur, il a interprété à proximité de Bejaia, par Beni Abes, et pendant des années, tu sais que les gens suivent, sans poser des questions, surtout que ils aiment illustrer les articles par des drapeaux, peu importe qu'ils ont fictifs ou erronés. Waran18 (talk) 09:23, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

J'avais fini par comprendre d'où venait la mauvaise affectation de ce drapeau (Beni Abes à cause de la mention de Béjaïa).

Est-ce que tu te chargerais d'adapter les pages WP ? --Poudou99 (talk) 09:39, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Oui Waran18 (talk) 10:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Doc Taxon: Taking into account the sources given, I agree to proceed to the renaming. I will do it if you agree.
Besides, I know @Waran18: in WP-fr I trust in him. He will deal with the consequences of this file renaming in the different WP pages --Poudou99 (talk) 15:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Poudou99: please wait. @Waran18: took the source from crwflags, but I know, that not everything is correct what crwflags say. That's why I'm already in process with my library to get the source Libro del Conosçimiento de todos los Regnos et Tierras et Señorios que son por el Mundo, et de las señales et armas que han to check what crwflags used to refer to. It should not take very much time. No matter what my results will be I promise to come back here and please let's rename then or not. Is this okay for you? – Doc Taxon • Talk • 18:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Doc Taxon: . It's ok for me. you check and then if it is correct you rename. --Poudou99 (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

@Poudou99 and Waran18: I think I detected the confusion: In Libro del Conosçimiento de todos los Regnos et Tierras et Señorios que son por el Mundo, et de las señales et armas que han there's a table listing the arms shown in a plate Seňales e armas del libro del conosçimiento de todos los Regnos e Tierras e Señorios que son por el mundo. In the mentioned table there are current numbers and equivalent numbers what have been confused I guess. The arms of the señorio de Brisca or Brischan and the arms of the regno of Africa with a crescent azure are both on the plate. Additionally crwflags is talking of six lines beginning at the eight-o'clock point of the hexagram, and these six lines are shown on the plate. I think we should correct the coat of arms of Brischan with these six lines. In the meantime this plate is public domain. I hope I can upload a scan of it. Waran18, if the renaming is done, will you improve all the wikipedia pages using this file? Kind regards – Doc Taxon • Talk • 01:35, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

It should rather be removed from the pages, the one that should have it is the Brischan article. Waran18 (talk) 09:12, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

@Waran18: the file has been renamed now. You can update the wiki pages now. Thanks a lot – Doc Taxon • Talk • 03:48, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks you Waran18 (talk) 08:08, 21 May 2023 (UTC)