File talk:Qing Dynasty 1820.png

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Modern fantasy[edit]

This map is a modern fantasy. See discussion here. Some kind of warning should be placed in the description and the map should ideally be substituted by historical maps in the various articles where currently used.--6-A04-W96-K38-S41-V38 (talk) 10:12, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Outlines of the map are quite similar to the one used in Oxford's Atlas of World History. See Google books. -Zanhe (talk) 00:43, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Really. Just to give a few examples: 1) Sakhalin is not include in the Oxford map. 2) List of tributary/vassal states is completely different. 3) Internal subdivisions are not mentioned on the Oxford map, see for example the 5-6 subdivisions for Tibet. It shouldn't be that hard to use a real map instead of debating ad nauseam the inaccuracies of the present map.--6-A04-W96 (talk) 13:07, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not easy to use a "real map" as you say. Look at these 19th-century maps:
  • 1832 French map
    1832 French map
  • 1833 French map
    1833 French map
  • 1836 French map
    1836 French map
  • 1844 map by John Nicaragua Dower
    1844 map by John Nicaragua Dower

They're all slightly different from each other, but they do include Sakhalin as part of the Qing empire. They also include Korea as part of Qing, which most modern maps treat as a tributary state, not as an integral part of the empire. -Zanhe (talk) 19:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Zhanhe, I also gathered some other maps on the french article fr:Tibet sous contrôle administratif de la dynastie Qing, they all goes the same way. Some only display parts like a whole dependence called Chinese tartary (an occidental point of view of turco-mongols controled areas (Mandchouria, Mongolia, Turkic and tibetan areas) Tartare is a deformation of Tatar (the turkic people/tribes) and was the name given at this time to turco-mongols. Some also separate dependencies (Tibet, Mongolia, Manchuria, Kokonor (Qinghai in mongolian)...). and the last, (China (as the Han dynasty was, there is no good distinction in european language usage between China (middle kingdom) and Han) by opposition to Chinese Empire covering the whole map above "China" part that only cover Han dynasty map (both definitions wrote together on the same map) for the general china map). Anyway nobody can't say Manchuria isn't in Manchu empire, that was also the Chinese empire at this time. Other spoted informations, Ladakh (Little Tibet), Nepal, butan was part of Chinese Tibet too, as you can see on some of the maps). I seen (searching only with english and french names) some other (now domain public) historical european/euro-american maps of China during Qing Dynasty, around the internet (in public library books/atlas/maps alone), they all go the same way, I don't have time to upload them all, already added some here, perhaps I will upload some time by time. I suppose portuguese, austrian, russian and some other countries cartographers does maps in their own languages the same way.Popolon (talk) 19:20, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1892 map --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:14, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

  • @Geographyinitiative: Answer: that "Qing Empire circa 1820 EN" map is poorly made and didn't show Ladakh before 1841 Dogra-Tibetan war as Tibetan territory. The Sakhalin Island (ᠰᠠᡥᠠᠯᡳᠶᠠᠨ ᡠᠯᠠ ᠠᠩᡤᠠ ᡥᠠᡩᠠ) was drawn on 18th century's Manchu maps. Wei Yuan (1794－1857)'s Sheng Wu Ji (聖武記) documented "太祖遣兵四百收瀕海散各部，其島居負險者刳小舟二百往取，庫頁內附，歲貢貂皮，設姓長、鄉長子弟以統之。" Page 461 of "Translation of Old Manchu documents of w:en:yamen of Sanxing Fu-dutong" (三姓副都统衙门满文档案) documented that the Nivkhs (費雅喀人) on the island was ruled by Qing "居住海島之庫頁費雅喀人貢貂，則由三姓副都統衙門派出官兵，前往約定之奇集噶珊收集貢貂並頒賞烏林。如不前來約定之地，則令官兵尋入海島，喚起前來，徵收貂皮並頒賞烏林。" By 1820 there was no evidence showing Qing has ceded those territories to any other states.
    For Taiwan please refer to English Wikipedia article w:en:Taiwan under Qing rule and check its references. I'm not here to explain you common knowledges. --173.68.165.114 00:53, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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