File talk:Israeli civilians killed.svg

I've never created a piechart before, so this is a first stab. — Erin (talk) 07:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

It's much better than the previous one (and good that it's only 2D, too). However I still fail to understand why this is presented as a pie chart at all, besides the fact that pie charts are pretty. Use of a pie chart tends to imply that there is a fixed total to be shared among different groups, whereas deaths unfortunately don't work that way.

Surely it makes more sense as a bar chart. In fact it can be implemented using EasyTimeline, which probably has more value as any wiki editor can easily edit it.

Lemme try...

Have a look - it's pretty easy to play with. pfctdayelise (translate?) 12:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. — Erin (talk) 14:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I strongly support the change. Actually, I initially envisioned a bar chart, intending to divide each bar into age groups (<12 and >65). It just looked bad both on Calc and Excel at the time, so I gave up :) Are you sure it should be sorted by bar height and not alphabetically? I don't want anyone to get a false impression that there's some freaky order of importance. —Lior 15:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorting by magnitude makes sense to me. However, I think that there should be a comparison with Israeli demographics, otherwise the uninformed observer might think Hezbollah were targeting Jews.

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Table of Israeli civilians killed by Hezbollah rockets.

Civilian casualties are in black. In pink are the numbers that would be expected on the basis of the 76.2%, 16.1%, 2.1% and 1.6% in the population. [1] Note that all the Muslim casualties were Sunni.

— Erin (talk) 23:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As elaborated under the relevant article on the Hebrew Wikipedia, the fact that >40% of the fatalities came from 20% of population clearly reflects a discrimination of Israeli minorities. Among else, there are no bomb shelters in some Arab villages and there was lesser displacement of minorities outside of northern Israel. Nevertheless, if you examine this datasheet you'd see there's a higher proportion of non-Jewish minorities in the Northern districts of Israel (i.e. Northern District + Haifa Sub-District). Specifically, practically all Druze settlements are concentrated in areas subject to rocket fire. I'm working on a corrected bar graph.--Lior 02:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as one might expect, the victims tend to be the poor and disadvantaged sectors of society, because they live in riskier areas, are less able to evacuate, have flimsier homes, etc. So, it is mainly non-Jews who are killed by random Hezbollah rockets in Israel, mainly poor Arabs who are killed by Israeli attacks in South Lebanon, and indeed mainly poor Blacks who were killed or stranded in New Orleans when Katrina struck. It is the same story with every disaster. — Erin (talk) 03:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Table of Israeli civilians killed by Hezbollah rockets in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.

Civilian casualties are in black. In pink are the numbers that would be expected on the basis of the population in the Israeli districts that came under rocket fire (Northern District + Haifa subdistrict) - 56.42% Jewish, 26.55% Muslim, 6.64% Druze, 6.36% Christian, 4.02% Unclassified. [2] Note that all the Muslim fatalities were Sunni.

Please note that there was no data on the Christian population in Haifa *Sub*-District, only in the entire Haifa District. Thus the expected deathtoll for Christians may be slightly overestimated. The numbers I've used are the following (in thousands):

District Unclassified Druze Christian Muslim Jewish

Northern District: 33.9 91.2 86.7 433.5 519.2

Haifa Sub-District: 34.2 21.3 21.1 16.3 436.6

Total: 68.1 112.5 107.8 449.8 955.8

I hope I got the numbers right, as the match between expected and actual deathtolls seems too good to be true. —Lior 03:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's correct. It just goes to show the random nature of the wild attacks. Remember that these are mostly either accidents or badly thought-out stikes. Hezbollah were targeting soldiers with 70% accuracy. These are the 30% that hit randomly. — Erin (talk) 03:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This chart only deals with deaths from ballistic rocket attacks, not the battles in Lebanon. These have killed 42 (or 43, see below) civilians and 12 soldiers. If one assumes that only soldiers were targetted, it amounts to 22% accuracy. But that's considering fatalities only, while there were many more civilian and military non-lethal casualties. I think accuracy is measured based on the total number of rockets fired, which amounts to more than 4000. But I'm no expert in this field.—Lior 04:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The 43rd Fatality

That MFA source now claims there has been a 43rd fatality, as follows: "Bakir Kurdi, 63, of Acre suffered a heart attack during a Katyusha attack on July 26. He died on August 11." I found no trace for that on Google News in Hebrew or English, so I can't figure out his religious affiliation. Besides, all other 3 heart attack fatalities died on the very same day, which makes the un-natural cause of death more convincing. Therefore I don't take this tragic case into account. —Lior 04:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Concensus reached?

I've added the EasyTimeline bar chart draft under the original pie chart, as I think a concensus has been reached regarding its supremacy. There's still work to be done - I've consistently failed at adding links, line breaks, and icons like to the bar data. I also failed to figure out how one links directly to the EasyTimeline chart, rather than the SVG file above it. Do I have to convert the EasyTimeline chart to SVG format and upload it separately? Could other users still modify it as easily as now once it is converted to a file? Will I ever get further on the Commons learning curve? Am I talking to myself? Etc. —Lior 06:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No conversion necessary. Just paste the code into the article in question. — Erin (talk) 06:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

As Erin said, don't convert it to a file - just copy the EasyTimeline code into that wiki. Then it can still be edited very easily. pfctdayelise (translate?) 03:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've done that here. I've just removed the earlier pie chart to reduce confusion. The substitute image should read 'See bar chart below', though my Firefox only shows a black square (wrong borders probably). Please revert my change if it only makes it more confusing to the uninformed user. —Lior 14:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

where is the objectivity ?

what about the civilians in Lebanon killed by the Israeli armed forces ? how many was it ? 4'000 - 5'000 civilians ? furthermore how objective do you think the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs are ?

I think you should try to cross check the information... and not let it be so one sided ! --Gddea - Daniel E. Als-Juliussen (talk) 09:07, 2 May 2011 (UTC)