File talk:Flag of the Republic of China.svg

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Colours[edit]

There seems to be no official source for the colour shades of the Taiwanese flag and the only other source I could find was the Album des pavillons which gives 301C for the blue shade and 186C for the red. These seemed to be used in the original image of the flag. However, they seem to be wrong; when looking at all the pictures of real flags, the red seems brighter and blue darker in reality. The current red shade looks unnatural on monitor because it couldn't look that bright on a real flag. I tried to pick Pantone shades that are closest to this image and are also used in other flags: 185C for red and 281C for blue. –Vzb83 (talk) 20:05, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I been told many colors too for the Taiwanese flag, but I honestly believe we should find one that is acceptable before we start changing the main image. Plus, if you change this one, then you have to change the dependant images, such as ensigns and the KMT flag. Also, I am getting some ROC flags in the mail from Taiwan, so I can see what is used. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 23:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is what I got from the official laws: "國旗黨旗均用印染法，以國產絲毛棉麻等織品為材料。國旗顏色為天青純白深紅，黨旗顏色為天青純白，旗桿白色配以金黃色球頂。" From a quick translation, the colors turn out to be azure, white and dark red. There seems to be a national printing process too, so I think it would be best if someone from Taiwan (or can read Chinese) do an accurate translation of us. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 19:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Were the previous shades based on any source? I've usually tried to go with the most reliable source I can find, but since the original shades that had a source do not seem to match reality, I'd try to find something else. I can change the colours of the dependant flags but I'll wait for a while to see if my changes on this flag will last. If we can't reach consensus I'd still use the wrong looking tones that are the only ones verified by a source. –Vzb83 (talk) 20:23, 2 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I compared the image to the flags I owned from Taiwan. Now, that I have looked into the issue more, I am not certain what color shade to use for the main flag. All I know really is the red and blue are dark. I was sent a few guesses by the British, and as I mentioned before, the colors stated in Album 2000 was just an estimation. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 01:26, 3 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now, that I got some more books and flags from Taiwan. There is supposed to be a hint of green in the colors, and from the versions that I see, it is not present. The books I got show a dark color flag on the cover, but light in the book itself. I also noticed the blue on the cloth flags and lapel pins are dark in color. And, the red used in the Chinese Taipei flag is the same red used in the Olympic rings, so I mind as well use that. I will upload it and see what yall think about it. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 08:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The closest thing I get to the 2 parts 1 part green (from hints by .tw friends) is Pantone 302C, which is close to what I got. Granted, I am using an LCD monitor, so the colors will look always odd at my end. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 08:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I emailed the government of the RoC here was the response in regards to the colours.

To deal with the situation:

hello: In November 3 of the views expressed by e-mail, the answer is as follows: According to the national flag of the Republic of China National Emblem Law Article 4 stipulates that the national flag of the Republic of China in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution as a red sun and blue sky in the upper left corner. China has yet to regulate the national emblem of the national flag color standard, but the national flag when the national emblem should be drawn to the pure color.

In this case to contact: Liu Qi days Telephone: (***) ****

Sincerely, Good health. And good luck Minister of the Ministry of the Interior E-mail Dear

(Translated)

Militaryace (talk) 13:13, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Militaryace, the construction of the flag isn't the issue at all. I have the relevant laws in a book now from Taiwan. However, we are just not sure what to use. The law mentions a blue color, and when I put the name in English, it comes out Cyan or Azure. The character for Red in Chinese is the same in Japanese, so I know it is red. I still feel it is a dark red, like crimson. I need to put some more photos on flickr to show what I got in my books. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 15:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I just posted the reply they gave me.

As far as I know there is no "official" shades for the colours. I'm not 100% sure though.


Militaryace (talk) 17:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are no official shades, I checked already. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 02:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But I think the shades of the flag should be same as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. [1]--128.208.37.26 08:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You guys were misled by the word 青. The official name of the flag is 青天白日满地红, the 青天白日 should be understood different. First and most importantly, the real meaning is not in the 'color', as explained in 林語堂:青天 [qing1tian1], n., (1) the clear, blue sky: 青天白日 in broad daylight; (2) as symbol of justice: 重見青天 regain freedom, freed from prison; formerly, address to judge: 青天大人. 青天白日, in the true sense of the word, was referring to the dark and oppressive rule of the Manchus; Dr.Sun Yet Sen, a revolutioary and one of the original designers of the flag, was fighting for freedom, the freedom of fresh sky and clear sun. Once we understand 青天白日 from this prospective, the answer is very certain. Sky Blue, is the answer. Not dark blue, certainly not black, which is the color I am seeing now on my monitor. OK guys? If no more doubts, please revert to the color used a few months ago. If you are a Chinese, you should know that Black flag is a symbol of death in China. Stop it now, please.Arilang1234 (talk) 09:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think sky blue#87CEEB works at all. Maybe these photos can help you guys [2][3].--128.208.37.26 10:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I personally like the colors used on the MFA website. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 15:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you are using the MFA's version, the current red color is perfect, but the blue color should be a little bit darker. I think dark blue #00008B or navy #000080 will be fit. Thank you. --128.208.37.26 20:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I will probably try navy blue. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 23:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think now? I think it is still too bright compared to the MFA's one. How about sapphire #082567. Do you want to try this?--128.208.37.26 02:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I used the blue that you suggested above. But, I am on an LCD, so I want to wait for others to chime in. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 06:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any sample for previewing?--128.208.37.26 08:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you can give me a list of what blue colors you want, and Arilang1234 wants, I will try and make samples. However, I will be very busy in the next week or two, so I really not sure when I can make the samples. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 07:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think sapphire #082567 will be just fine. Many thanks--128.208.37.186 07:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then how do the others feel about this color? User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 08:07, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Navy is too desaturated. Seems like the majority of photos have a vibrant, saturated, slightly purply blue (Han Blue?). ¦ Reisio (talk) 07:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In most of the pictures I see, I either see the Navy blue or a medium blue. We had a medium blue for a few years before that one guy changed it. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 18:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I still think medium blue is a little bit too bright for me. I think navy blue is acceptable, but can be darker. By the way, I think the other ROC flags and the emblem should be fixed too.--128.208.37.186 22:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just got access to a monitor that will show dark colors for me, so I will think of something. I personally like the navy blue. And yes, the other images will be changed, but I have to wait until finals are over. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 11:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I am a citizen of the Republic of China (Taiwan), and I appreciate what you guys have done so far for the image of our flag. Unfortunately, I do not live in Taiwan right now, so I cannot really contact anyone on this subject. However, I do have a flag in front of me right now. Comparing to the most current file, I think the red should have less luminosity, and the blue should be represented by the sapphire color proposed above. I tried the color code for sapphire in Adobe Photoshop CS3, but somehow it turns out to be different from the sample color block shown above. I am voting for the sapphire color #082567 shown above. Thanks again for your work! -User:Hsuc 17:32, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And from speaking to Taiwan residents, they either want the sapphire or keep it the way it is. I'll try the sapphire out soon. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 19:41, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much. I think the flag is alright now. Would you mind to change the shades of the emblem, other flags of the ROC and Kuomintang please?--222.166.160.40 06:45, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, give me some time please. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 07:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, done for the main symbols (flag and seal of the ROC and the KMT). I'll do the other flags later. I first just need to put them into SVG. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 08:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the list of Chinese flags: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_flags where you can find almost all the ROC flags. Hope it will help you. Merry X'mas, by the way.--222.166.160.153 15:28, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have a discovery for colors hades. On this page from the Ministry of Interior I found a sample file in Adobe Illustrator format, open with a text editor I got a large piece of PDF code. Then I split a base64 code, but removed &xA; character entity reference. After converted this base64 code I got a JPG thumbnail image, in which I got these color shades: #FFFFFF for white, #003487 for blue, and #DD000F for red. You can go to File:Flag of the Republic of China (alternate shade 4).svg to see the visual appearance. --Great Brightstar (talk) 09:53, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For comparison[edit]

The Whampoa Military Academy emblem includes its motto, which was first proclaimed by Sun Yat-sen at the Whampoa Academy's opening in 1924. The red and blue color of the original ROC national emblem can be used as a standard.Arilang1234 (talk) 05:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Blue #0 0 255 should be OKArilang1234 (talk) 11:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cat.[edit]

Please exchange the category "Flags with stars" with "Flags with sun". --Mattes (talk) 12:10, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. odder 10:04, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The blue is too dark[edit]

To all the concerned editors: The current svg version has the wrong color, I have uploaded a more correct version for user Zscout370 to use as a reference.

The blue color #0000AA of the real Blue Sky White Sun flag can be easily seen on this photo.
The current version which has a near black shade#082567, which needs to be replaced with the correct blue shade
To show the difference between near Black#082567 and Blue


Arilang talk 12:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I uploaded File:Flag of the Republic of China (alternate blue).svg so the alternatives can be compared. P.S. The standard spelling in English is Chiang Kai-shek... AnonMoos (talk) 23:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, the Guide to the Flags of the World by Mauro Talocci (revised and updated by Whitney Smith) ISBN 0-688-01141-1 shows the blue color as somewhat dark, for what that's worth... AnonMoos (talk) 10:40, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The blue shade of the flag is away too light...go to Taiwan and see the flags on the governmental buildings, you will see the shade is darker than what you think.--128.208.37.203 08:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
@ 128.208.37.203 I am using the Time magazine image , as well as the 黄埔軍校 Chinese military school emblem as a standard, thank you. Talking about Tawain, Ma Yinzeou is about to give up the ROC flag anyway, when PRC officials visit Tawain, he would instruct Taiwan police to pull down Blue Sky/Red Sun flags, I saw it on internet video. Arilang talk 09:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can show you the official document which shows the darker blue shade if you want.--128.208.37.203 06:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


@User 128.208.37.203, any suggestion is welcome, please present the evidence on the talk page. I can assure you, the blue color is no way near sapphire #082567.

Also, please checken:File:KMT official web site image.jpg on wikipedia. Arilang talk 23:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your assurance doesn't provide any conviction, the ministry of foreign affairs shows clearly what the shade of the flag should be. I urge you to stop all your vandalism on this flag. I will also be happy to show the flag on my legal document if you still want to keep on your stubbornness.--128.208.37.203 10:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
@ user 128.208.37.203, to help solve the question of what the actual blue color should be adopted by wiki commons, I have upload the .gif file from www.mofa.gov.tw. Indeed, that single image shows the ROC national flag does have a dark-blue-near-black color shade. However, if you look carefully, on that very page, on the top of the webpage, there is an image of the very same flge, flying in the wind. And if you look carefully, that image has a lighter blue color shade, that means these two flags have different colors. Now you tell me, which one is the standard? Arilang talk 12:08, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In order to fade away your stubbornness, I have upload the legal document It shows that shade is much darker than what you have been arguing for. For your evidences, I still cannot see any convincing reasons. In the top of the page and the Sun Yat Sen Mausoleum, the color shade will be shown different by the effects of the sunlight. As we are determining the web color of the shade, we should follow the official web color shown in the mofa.gov.tw instead of the real object which the shade can be affected easily. Moreover, look at the KMT emblem which is shown in the KMT website carefully. That image could not be valid evidence since the shade of the emblem changes lighter with the sign "KMT" and the emblem is not well-made as you can the lines of the triangles were straight instead of curve. And stop using Times magazine for evidence too. If it could be an evidence, this one can be a evidence too. The cover of the Time magazine is simply artistic design which can not seen as official at all. Last, I do not know where you get the emblem of the military school from. It can be an evidence only if it is approved by the government. You have been damaging the flag for many days already and I urge you stop doing that now.--128.208.35.166 22:04, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@User 128.208.35.166, I find your arguments weak, and childish:

Who was doing the damaging, you or me?[edit]

IP User 128.208.37.203 , if you care to look at the Flag_of_Chinese_Taipei_for_Olympic_games.svg, you would see how much damage you cause to the ROC national emblem by asking admin Zscout to use #082567 instead of #0000AA, causing the ROC national emblem to look like black, similar to the Black ring of the Oylimpic five rings(blue, yellow, black, green, and red). I think you did it on purpose, if I am happen to be a admin, I shall certainly bar you for a long time. But then you are an IP user, and can always come back using different IP address. Arilang talk 17:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


[Flag_of_Chinese_Taipei_for_Olympic_games.svg, with #082567 suggested by IP User 128.208.37.203 ]

"Look like" is just your own subjective view. By using my knowledge and eyes, I can definitely tell what is different between blue and black. "If" again is just your own assumption. Back to the first point I have addressed, banning an IP editor for telling his own opinion apparently violate the principle of wikipedia being a "free encyclopedia". I don't know how well you understand what "free" is, but I definitely know your advocacy does not fit what the term "freedom".

#082567 or #0000AA[edit]

(1)You are a IP editor, with no other contribution, you seems to come here just to argue this en:Blue Sky with a White Sun design. Moreover, you are the one(and the only one) who was pushing admin Zscout370 into using sapphire color #082567, instead of the more correct #0000AA.

(2)legal document According admin Zscout370, who has done extensive research into the en:Blue Sky with a White Sun design, he had stated that:Quote:Militaryace, the construction of the flag isn't the issue at all. I have the relevant laws in a book now from Taiwan. However, we are just not sure what to use. The law mentions a blue color, and when I put the name in English, it comes out Cyan or Azure. The character for Red in Chinese is the same in Japanese, so I know it is red. I still feel it is a dark red, like crimson. I need to put some more photos on flickr to show what I got in my books. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 15:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC) Unquoted.

(3)Quote:we should follow the official web color shown in the mofa.gov.tw instead of the real object Unquoted. If the real object cannot be used as standard, and we only use the so called official web color, when the official web color has two distinctive color shade, one is light blue, one is dark blue, please tell me, which one should we follow?

(4)Quote:Last, I do not know where you get the emblem of the military school from. It can be an evidence only if it is approved by the government.Unquoted. For your information, the military school emblem is from http://www.cma.edu.tw/ch/, are you saying that this official website is not government, please tell me, what is your definition of government?

(5)Quote:You have been damaging the flag for many days already and I urge you stop doing that now.Unquoted. I am a active contributor in Wikipedia, Wikicommons, Wikisource, Wikiquote, Chinese wikipedia. I am here to contribute, not to damage. And I will fight till the correct en:Blue Sky with a White Sun is taken up by Wikicommons, I will not stop until that time, I can assure you. Arilang talk 07:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't why you would make the argument personally. But personal attack only made your arguments even weaker.
(1)IP editor has no knowledge on what is right or wrong. So if a Wikipedia user does something wrong, an IP editor should not say anything about it because he has no contribution on the work? So are you saying that only Wikipedia user has the power to determine what is right? I thought wikipedia was a free encyclopedia for everyone, but now I have to reconsider of it. I hope there is some wikipedia users to speak out that if it is a general view for all the users.
(2)Although there is no any restriction of the shade of the flag by any law. But from the legal document I had upload, the shade was shown darker than what you have argued for. And it is a legal document issued by the ROC Government. Its importance should be recognized.
(3)Which two do you mean? I see only one flag with web design and web color on the MOFA website.
(4)I checked out the link, and the blue shade of the emblem in the front page is much darker than the one you uploaded. It again proved that the shade should be darker.
(5)Yes, but your ignorance have caused you to damage the flag already. It may be a unintentional act, but one should not change anything which the former had settled until all the arguments are solved and you apparently did not wait until that.--128.208.37.203 09:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please answer my questions first[edit]

To IP User:128.208.37.203,you have not answer my questions:

Arilang talk 10:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clear(Blue) Sky/White(青天白日旗) Sun flag inside Mausoleum[edit]

User 128.208.37.203, please check en:Sun Yat-sen Mausoleum, there is a image file en:File:Zhongshan12.jpg, which is a large en:Blue Sky with a White Sun image on the ceiling of Sun Yat-sen Mausoleum. I hope the color of the original flag design should put all the color dispute at rest. Arilang talk 15:29, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Images from FOTW Flags Of The World website for comparison[edit]

http://flagspot.net/flags/tw.html

Requesting changing color of the blue from #082567 to #0000AA[edit]

{{editprotected}} - deactivating until consensus is reached. Please readd {{Editprotected}} when/if a non-controversial edit should be made. Rocket000 (talk) 00:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In section #Colors_used_by_government_websiteswe have three votes of support for the colors #fe0000 and #000095, with no one opposing. How long and how many more votes do we need before we can call it a consensus? Readin (talk) 15:01, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should have move the template. ;) Done. Rocket000 (talk) 19:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The SVG color of #082567 should be changed into #0000AA, because #0000AA is the nearest color to the original blue color of the Blue Sky/White Sun flag.

  • Emblem of the Kuomintang
    Emblem of the Kuomintang
  • Nuvola Taiwanese flag
    Nuvola Taiwanese flag
  • Clear(Blue) Sky-White Sun design on ceiling of Sun Yat-sen Mausoleum. The above photo was taken by wiki user Ccchiang of en:Sun Yat-sen Mausoleum, and he/she put it under Public Domain on 2006. This is the original color of the Blue Sky/White Sun(Chinese:青天白日旗), I hope the blue color should put all other versions at rest.
    Clear(Blue) Sky-White Sun design on ceiling of Sun Yat-sen Mausoleum. The above photo was taken by wiki user Ccchiang of en:Sun Yat-sen Mausoleum, and he/she put it under Public Domain on 2006. This is the original color of the Blue Sky/White Sun(Chinese:青天白日旗), I hope the blue color should put all other versions at rest.

Arilang talk 06:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I think there is some misunderstanding. A flag fluttering atop a government building that you see or photograph is itself non-luminescent, its colours are probably the result of reflection from sunlight. Its apparent shade of blue can be dramatically different depending on the angles and amount of sunlight. The blue may appear significantly darker in a photograph under cloudy conditions than one captured under a summer sun. This should be distinguished from a electroluminescent source such as the liquid-crystal displays of computer monitors, whereby the colours are created by the source itself. In this case, we should use computer graphics as our basis for creating our own files on Commons. Preferably from an authoritative source such as a government or vexillology website. The flag file from the official website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the ROC is a perfect example file. It is not a photograph of a real flag but a computer graphics file for display on computer monitors, thus we should use its RGB values. Similarly, if you decided to sew together a physical ROC flag, you would bring another physical flag (preferably from an authoritative source) as an example when choosing the colour of your cloth rather than using a computer graphics file's RGB values as the basis from which to select the colour of your flag's cloth. (Note of course, if there exists laws passed by the government regarding the colour of flags whether physical or computer displays, then those laws take precedence. However, to the best of my knowledge, the ROC government has not release RGB values of its flag for computer display, hence the above argument of imitating a file for computer displays by an authoritative source such as the flag file of the Foreign Ministry website). Ultimately, there is no right or wrong. The ROC Constitution simply states that there should be a white sun on a field of blue, the colour blue, without mention of actual shades. Moreover, when the constitution was written, I don't think that what was meant by those words were descriptions of RGB values for a luminescent source such as computer displays. The shades of colours are ultimately up to interpretation until they pass a new law or put up a suggestion for RGB values for the proper display of the ROC flag on computers. As for Wikimedia Commons and other Wikimedia wikis, it is up to the editors to decide through discussion, votes, and concensus. A good example of this problem is the current File:Flag_of_Poland_(normative).svg, which users on the local Polish Wikipedia has voted to use, which I personally feel to be incorrect and ugly (cf: File:Flag_of_Poland.svg). I originally thought that the Blue, White, and Red were directly copied from the Flag of France, including its three symbolic ideals of liberty, equality, and fraternity. It's common on the mainland that the ROC flags' red is called "French Red 法国红", and the flag of the PRC is considered "Red with Chinese characteristics", "Chinese Red 中国红", =] of course, that may just be urban hearsay. Also, even the Commons Flag of France file has its colour disputes (File_talk:Flag_of_France.svg). Personally, I am content with the sapphire colour as an accurate representation. Even from the files that User:Arilang1234 uploaded, one can see a great variation of the shades of blue from the lighter sky blue of the KMT website to the photo of the flag held by the protestor (even though one is a computer file and the other a photograph, there is nevertheless significant difference in shade, I doubt the protestor's flag was made from cloth of the same shade of sky blue as the KMT website). --Shibo77 16:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Counter-argument against user:Shibo77's comment[edit]

Quote:The flag file from the official website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the ROC is a perfect example file. It is not a photograph of a real flag but a computer graphics file for display on computer monitors, thus we should use its RGB values.Unquoted.

  • User Shibo77, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the ROC does not, and cannot decide on the shade of blue of the en:Blue Sky with a White Sun(青天白日) flag, since the ROC has not publish any law in regards of the Clear en:Blue Sky with a White Sun(青天白日) flag.
    • If we regard Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the ROC as the authority of the shade of Blue, what about this:
Emblem of Chinese Military Academy designed by Sun Yat-sen, original file on http://www.cma.edu.tw/ch/

, why is that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the ROC has higher authority than http://www.cma.edu.tw/ch/, which is the official website of ROC Chinese Military Academy, where ROC Army officers are trained. This file File:1924 Emblem of Chinese Military Academy designed by Sun Yat-sen.png is also computer generated, for the display on monitor, does not affected by any natural light. Is there any special reason why this file is not being used? Arilang talk 21:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

      • Please do not forget we still have the official Kuomintang website, and the official KMT party emblem:

which can be seen here:http://www.kmt.org.tw/.

Now, user Shibo77, which one should we pick? You better give a good reason. Your comment:Quote:Personally, I am content with the sapphire colour as an accurate representation. Unquoted. Can you explain why do you think sapphire color is an acurate representation, where there are many chioces available? And knowing once a correct color shade is picked, thousands of wiki articles will be affected? Arilang talk 22:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who should we follow, KMT or Wikicommons?[edit]

User Shibo77, if we follow your reasoning, the result will be like this: Now you tell me, is Kuomintang official website wrong, or Wikicommons wrong? Allow me to put the question differently, is wikicommons here to make a statment, saying that both the en:Kuomintang and en:Sun Yat-sen had been color blind for more than 100 years?

Arilang talk 22:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Thanks for the swift reply! May I suggest that you append newly created subsections to the bottom of the talk page, and try to reply under older sections instead of creating new ones, it helps to keep the overall organisation of the discussion page clear. User:Zscout370's systematic changes last December were the result of discussion and concensus as you may see in the first section of this page under "#Colours". The Ministry of Foreign Affairs website shows a computer graphics file of the flag of the Republic of China. This is what you wish to change, that is, the Commons file of the flag of the Republic of China. This figures into my personal preference for sapphire as well as my general impression of the shade of blue for the ROC flag, especially the framed versions that one often sees next to a portrait of Sun Yat-sen at interiors of official government complexes. The file of the logo of the Army Academy of the ROC was uploaded from flickr, which has an unknown original source, (perhaps by the flickr uploader?), nevertheless that file is currently used on Wikimedia projects. To check whether a file here at Commons is used, you may click the "check usage" tab at the top of file pages. A quick check at File:1924 Emblem of Chinese Military Academy designed by Sun Yat-sen.png shows that the file is used on the English Wikipedia article: en:Republic of China Military Academy, which is a perfect complement to the body of that article. (On a sidenote, I did not find the flickr file on the official Army Academy website that you have given, instead I found this which has a shade of roughly #15377F, not the lighter shade of around #2444AC of the flickr file now on the Commons' database). As for the KMT website, the Nationalist Party of China symbol was found here (which incidentally seems to have its rays incorrectly rendered), and the lighter sky blue logo that you have uploaded onto Commons are used for the welcome and ad section at the top (which also has its rays incorrectly rendered, perhaps because of the files low resolution). In any case, these are questions that should be posed to the webmaster of the KMT website, not to me. Another website is the Office of the President of the ROC, unfortunately, I could not find a file of the national flag that is depicted on a page devoted to the flag and emblem. Although there is a dark shaded (~#091B67) flag just above navigation at the top. If you have found on another website a file of the flag of the Republic of China that is more authoritative than the Ministry of Foreign of Affairs version, please do share. The reason we are going through these websites is not because of finding which is more authoritative, but because that (to the best of my knowledge) there currently isn't a rule or even suggestion of RGB values for proper display of the ROC flag on a luminescent device such as a computer monitor. Thus it is simply an attempt to imitate other (preferably a series of authoritative, government-run) websites. Incidentally, this was how the shades of the PRC national flag was arrived at through a discussion on the Chinese Wikipedia (following the colours used on the official website of the central government). --Shibo77 03:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The paramount situation:Clear(Blue) Sky White Sun Flag(青天白日旗)[edit]

Like I have said again and again, en:Blue Sky with a White Sun(青天白日旗) would be the only thing Official left. Like admin Zscout said, ROC had not established any law regarding the shade of any color. Even though it is up to us editor to decide which color shade is the correct one, before doing so, I would like editors to remember one thing, that is, this en:Blue Sky with a White Sun Flag(青天白日旗) is well known among nearly all the 1.5 billion Chinese. When we pick a color shade, if we pick a wrong one, such as the current shade, sapphire color #082567, all of us editors, would become the laughing stock of all the Chinese. Why? how can anyone, Chinese or no Chinese, and bear in mind, this is a Chinese National Flag, How could anyone associate this sapphire color #082567, with en:Blue Sky with a White Sun? We may be smart, we can present all sorts of reasons, and Yes, we can have Consensus, we pick some color. I shall ask the same question again, Have anyone really seen a White Sun in a dark-blue-near-black Sky? If we decide to pick sapphire color #082567, would anyone brave enough to send e-mail to Kuomintang office in Taiwan, and tell them, Hi, you guys had been wrong for more than 100 years. User Shibo77, I dare you to do it.

Emblem of the Kuomintang


Arilang talk 14:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again! I don't understand your logic here. Since there isn't an official law or suggestion, why would one shade be more right or wrong than another? As it is apparent by now, there is great variety in the shade of blue of the flag, ranging from sky blue to sapphire. There isn't a right and wrong shade, full stop. Your interpretation stems directly from the Chinese description of "青天", which is simply "blue skies", with the "clear" being implied. In any case "clear blue" is not a shade but a colour. A national flag is heavily symbolic, it is not meant as an exact representation of a physical object (with some exceptions such as maps). I have not seen a white sun on a dark sapphire sky, nor have I seen a white sun with 12 triangular rays. The sky blue emblem on the KMT website isn't incorrect, just as the sapphire blue of the flag depicted on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website isn't incorrect. --Shibo77 07:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't try to find excuses for your error[edit]

Quote:The sky blue emblem on the KMT website isn't incorrect, just as the sapphire blue of the flag depicted on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website isn't incorrect. Unquoted.

User Shibo77, your immature comment just make me laugh. The sky blue emblem on the KMT website isn't incorrect, user Shibo77, the sky blue color is more than isn't incorrect, it is the official and legal color since the emblem were drawn in 1893. If you ask KMT to change the color into any other shade, it is equivalent to ask them to change the KMT name.

Now on the case of the sapphire blue of the flag depicted on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, is more of a political question, than a simple question of color. If you are of Chinese ethnic, you would know the political status between en:PRC and ROC; but if you are not Chinese, then I don't blame you.

In short, in many places of the real world, the real flag of en:Blue Sky with a White Sun Flag(in whatever color shade) is being banned from showing in the public, sometimes even in Taiwan, all because of the powerfull en:PRC. Try to find an image of the en:Blue Sky with a White Sun flag in en:Ma Ying-jeou. There isn't one, Ma Ying-jeou, the current president of the Republic of China, he tried very hard to please the en:PRC by ordering the Taiwan police to pull down the en:Blue Sky with a White Sun flag when there are visiting en:PRC officials around.

I am a Chinese, I know how bad the real en:Blue Sky with a White Sun Flag suffered in the real world, and I hope that is not going to happen in wikicommons. Arilang talk 09:50, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you love to personal attack on somebody who doesn't agree with you by saying "User Shibo77, your immature comment just make me laugh." It doesn't make your argument stronger but conversely make your personality negative.--Contributions/72.45.35.93 23:22, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! I don't quite understand your logic here. I did not say that the sky blue colour wasn't incorrect, I did not mention "colour" in the statement that you quoted but rather the shade which isn't codified in an official legal document at the moment. Thus is why I said that both the KMT website's shade of sky blue is equally correct/incorrect with that of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website's shade of sapphire blue, as they both adhere to the legal colour of blue. Simply put, there is not legal shade (yet), only a legal colour, from whence comes our current discussion. You referred to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website's display of a flag with a dark blue shade as "more of a political question", I do not undertsand the correlation here, could you elaborate on that? I'll leave a message on your talkpage as I feel that the reason that we are having difficulties with this discussion is because of miscommunication. Thanks for reading! --Shibo77 03:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Description and Categories[edit]

{{Editprotected}} I have a new set of descriptions. For some reason most of the current descriptions are partly in English.

中文（繁體）：中華民國國旗；青天白日滿地紅
中文（简体）：中华民国国旗；青天白日满地红
བོད་ཡིག: ཀྲུང་ཧྭ་དམངས་ཁབ དང་ལྕོག
閩東語 / Mìng-dĕ̤ng-ngṳ̄：中華民國國旗 / Dṳ̆ng-huà Mìng-guók guók-gì
English: Flag of the Republic of China
贛語：中華民國國旗
客家語/Hak-kâ-ngî：中華民國國旗
Қазақша: جۇڭحۋا رەسپۋبليكاسى بايراعى
Кыргызча: جۇڭحۇا رەسپۇبلىكاسى تۋۋسۋ
한국어: 中華民國의國旗；青天白日滿地紅旗 / 중화민국의 국기；청천백일만지홍기
文言：中華民國之國旗
Монгол: ᠪᠦᠭᠦᠳᠡ ᠨᠠᠶᠢᠷᠠᠮᠳᠠᠬᠤ ᠳᠤᠮᠳᠠᠳᠤ ᠤᠯᠤᠰ ᠲᠥᠷᠢᠶᠨ ᠳᠠᠯᠪᠠᠠ
閩南語 / Bân-lâm-gú：中華民國國旗 / Tiong-hoâ Bîn-kok ê kî-á
Português: Bandeira da República da China
Русский: Флаг Китайской Республики
Татарча / tatarça: قىتاي جومحۇرىيياتەنىڭ باراك
ئۇيغۇرچە / Uyghurche: جۇڭخۇ جۇمھۇرىيىتى بايرىقى
Oʻzbekcha / ўзбекча: حىيتوي جۋمحۋرىيياتىينىينگ بايروعىي
Tiếng Việt: 國旗中華民國 / Quốc kỳ Trung Hoa Dân Quốc
吴语：中華民國國旗
粵語: 中華民國國旗
Vahcuengh：中華民國國旗 / Cuŋƅvaƨ Minƨgoƨ goƨgeiƨ / Cunghvaz Minzgoz gozgeiz
中文（香港）：中華民國國旗；青天白日滿地紅
Dansk: Republikken Kinas flag
Esperanto: Flago de Respubliko Ĉinio
Español: Bandera de la República de China
Français : Drapeau de la République de Chine
हिन्दी: जनवादी गणराज्य का ध्वज
Interlingua: Bandiera del Republica de China
Interlingue: Flagga del China
Italiano: Bandiera della Repubblica di Cina
日本語: 中華民国の国旗
Lingua Franca Nova: Bandera de la Republica de Xina
ລາວ: ທຸງຊາດຈີນ
Norsk bokmål: Republikken Kinas flagg
Novial: Flage de Republike de China
Polski: Flaga Republiki Chińskiej
Tagalog: Watawat ng Republika ng Tsina

I suggest these be the new categories of the image:

  • [[Category:Blue, red, white flags]
  • [[Category:Flags of the Republic of China]
  • [[Category:Flags of unrecognized states]
  • [[Category:Flags with cantons]
  • [[Category:Flags with sun]
  • [[Category:SVG flags - China]
  • [[Category:SVG sovereign state flags]

Homo lupus (talk) 22:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. Homo lupus (talk) 15:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{Editprotected}}

I apologise but I appear to have made an error. The Hindi description should say this:
हिन्दी: चीनी गणराज्य के फ्लैग

Regarding your edits to Republic of China files[edit]

Hi! Thank you for the contributions that you've made to Wikimedia Commons! Please refrain from systematically changing files relating to Republic of China flags and emblems without a prior discussion and a concensus from Commons editors. The files here at Commons are shared by all the Wikimedia projects, and a systematic change such as the change of the RGB values of the Republic of China flags and emblems should be done only when there is sufficient concensus. As you can see from your query under the talk page of File talk:Flag of the Republic of China.svg, it is still far from that. Thank you! --Shibo77 03:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks user: Shibo77 for your comment.
  1. Please note that I am not systematically changing files , I just point out the error made by User:Zscout, admin/creator of File:Flag of the Republic of China.svg, because of wrong use of #082567. And for some unknown reason, User Zscout has not responsed since 20 May, which is three weeks ago.
  2. Regarding to concensus, evidence presented by IP User 128.208.37.203 is very weak, to say the least, since he/she admitted that:Quote:Although there is no any restriction of the shade of the flag by any law. Unquoted. I am not familiar with rules in wikicommons, but in wikipedia, when come to voteing, like AfD, IP user does not count.
  3. As my talk page is not the right place to dicuss files associated with File:Flag of the Republic of China.svg, I suggest user Shibo77 would discuss on the relevant talk pages, thank you. Arilang talk 08:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arilang talk 07:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To user Shibo77[edit]

Regarding files:

  1. File:Republic of China National Emblem.svg
  2. File:Chinese Taipei Paralympic Flag.svg
  3. File:Republic of China Army Flag.svg
  4. File:Naval Jack of the Republic of China.svg
  5. File:Republic of China National Emblem.svg
  6. File:Emblem of the Kuomintang.svg
  7. File:Flag of Chinese Taipei for Olympic games.svg

All the above files involve the Blue Sky White Sun design by Sun Yat-sen and Luk Howtung, Chinese revolutionary. In Chinese its official name is 青天白日旗, literery means Clear Sky White Sun Flag. Though the word 青 is the source of confusion among non-Chinese, but any Chinese editor would know that 青天 really refers to Clear Sky, and we all know, Chinese or non-Choinese, the color of the sky is Blue when it is clear. This is where admin Zscout got it wrong, and unfortunately, he seems to be taking a longer than usual break from wikicommons, this is why no one seems to care about the correct color shade.

However, user Shibo77, I hope you would dicuss first before you do anymore reverting, thank you, Arilang talk 10:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment[edit]

User:Shibo77, thanks for your comment. I fully understand your point of view.

  • I am all for consensus, and since Nov 2008 I had begun questioning the use of sapphire #082567, and it is my opinion thet sapphire shade is too dark to be near black, and to most of the ordinary readers, who have little knowledge of neither RGB nor SVG, that sapphire is just plain black, is not blue. Please remember the official Chinese name of the flag is 青天白日, translation is Clear Sky White Sun, and we do not have to learn Chinese to understand the fact that the sky color is blue when the sky is clear. The sapphire #082567 if it is being used, the Sky is black, is dark, look like night time. User Shibo, have you ever seen a White Sun on a night Sky?
    • All these files,
  1. File:Republic of China National Emblem.svg
  2. File:Chinese Taipei Paralympic Flag.svg
  3. File:Republic of China Army Flag.svg
  4. File:Naval Jack of the Republic of China.svg
  5. File:Republic of China National Emblem.svg
  6. File:Emblem of the Kuomintang.svg
  7. File:Flag of Chinese Taipei for Olympic games.svg
  8. File:Flag of the Republic of China.svg

All the above files, did not used sapphire #082567 until a few months ago, when IP User:128.208.37.203, whose sole purpose seem to be coming here to turn Blue into Black, suddenly ask admin Zscout to use sapphire #082567, and for some unexplained reasons, admin Zscout began to add sapphire #082567 into all the relevant SVG files. It was not like that before. If we look at all the files file history, we can see that back in 2006,2007, sapphire #082567 did not come into play. Why is that we need to use it now? What is so special about that official website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the ROC? Who gave them the absolute authority to dictate the Color of the National Flag, when we, including admin Zscout, user Shibo77, IP user 128.208.37.203, and me included, we all know that ROC has no law on the Color, nor the Shade, of any color. The only thing official about the flag is it's Chinese name:青天白日满地红, translation: Clear Sky White Sun Full Red Earth. Now, sapphire #082567 is no Clear(Blue) Sky, no matter who we are, Chinese or no Chinese.

And remember, Clear(Blue) Sky White Sun(青天白日) flags was created in 1897, more than 100 years ago, the real color, is on the ceiling of Sun Yat-sen Mausoleum, as can be seen here:

Arilang talk 19:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does it matter????[edit]

The ROC flag should be light blue, but I agree with a point that the shade of blue could be very different depending on sun angle. However, Arilang's point is correct; we should prefer the light blue version rather than the dark blue version.Teeninvestor (talk) 23:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

KMT flag[edit]

Taiwan flag with Blue color design.
Correct version

After Odder protected and changed the file, it looks very weird. I've never seen a China flag in this colour, on TV or in front of government buildings. Any evidence showing the ROC flag, ROC naval flag and KMT flag are actually using the same colourcode? If not, I think we should not change the natinal flag according to the KMT flag.

Blue Sky White Design in 1940s, Sky Blue color

I think the color is OK, ten times better than the black color before. Arilang talk 07:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Condemnation on Changing the Shade of the Flag before Any Agreement[edit]

Any change should not be committed as the discussion is still going on.--Contributions/72.45.35.93 23:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor please take note[edit]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2004/11/22/2003212073

Ex-ROC President Chen Shui-bian said in 2004:

Showing two placards printed with the KMT's party emblem and the national emblem of the Republic of China, Chen asked the audience whether they could distinguish from the two symbols, which are the same.

The president also wondered why Taiwan's Olympic flag, the badges of the navy, the army, the air force and the police all bear the KMT's party emblem, which he said does not conform to democratic principles.

"Now that it is so easy for people to confuse the KMT's party emblem with the national emblem, I would like to tell the KMT that I give it a deadline -- which is three months -- to change its party emblem," Chen said. "Only by doing so can we clearly distinguish between the two emblems, and the KMT won't say things like `the nation is stolen' just because it lost the election."

"If it does not change its emblem, as soon as the pan-green camp gains the legislative majority, we will revise the National Emblem Law."

IP editor 72.45.35.93, the above statement by ROC ex-president indirectly prove that admin Odder's action was correct, and timely. Arilang talk 02:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New evidence for the Darker Shade of the Flag of the Republic of China[edit]

This Yearbook issued by the GOVERNMENT and also the other evidences which were mentioned above have clearly shown the shade of the blue color of the flag should be darker. Odder should not change the shade until the dispute has solved. Furthermore, User Arilang still messed up all the pages about the flag and emblem of the ROC as he puts the alternative flag on the en:republic of china page, the incorrect emblem of KMT on the en:sky blue and white sun page and also the Chinese Taipei Olympics flag. It is a seriously vandalism on the flag which represents a nation. I urge Odder and Arilang stop any further change on the flag and converted back to User Zscout before everything is settled.--Contributions/72.45.35.93 00:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eh. I though the problem was solved, and have been apparently wrong. Do we all agree that the colour presented by the yearbook is a correct colour that should be used on the flag? odder 08:00, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes please revert to the color used on the Yearbook. The KMT emblem should remain light blue as shown on their website, but all the other ones should be dark blue. I don't know about the exact shade but the current one is definitely wrong. Thanks, WikiLaurent (talk) 19:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the files that need to be reverted back to dark blue:
  • with #082567 embedded
    with #082567 embedded
  • with #082567 embedded
    with #082567 embedded
  • with #082567 embedded
    with #082567 embedded
  • with #0000AA embedded
    with #0000AA embedded
  • with #082567 embedded
    with #082567 embedded
@user WikiLaurent, I am fully aware of the color problem, but even the ROC year books do not have a uniform blue color for the en:Blue Sky with White Sun flag, the question is: which YEAR of the year books should we use as The Standard? Another question is: Since all the en:Blue Sky with White Sun emblems should have one uniform color only, how can we allow Naval Jack of the Republic of China.svg to have darker blue than Republic of China National Emblem.svg? I seriously hope someone would be able to give a good answer to the above two questions. Arilang talk 00:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't which shade of blue is the right one - perhaps we should take the values on the different Yearbooks and average them? Sounds strange but maybe that way we'll be able to approximate the real value. Also according to Burgare below, there doesn't appear to be an official color. What's for sure is that the current color is not right and needs to be changed to a darker blue. WikiLaurent (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]



@Admin Odder, the ROC Year Book in different years have different versions of the Blue Sky White Sun flags, because when Chen Shui-bian was president, he hated everything about Kuomintang and the Blue Sky White Sun flag, he tried very hard to abolish Kuomintang and ROC, and he had advocate Taiwan to cut off every tie with old China. Since ROC did not publish any color code for the flag, that means there is no official and legal color code, that means even those flags within the yearbook are not the legal correct version. For example, 1995 Year Book and 2008 Year Book have different shade of Blue, which one should we pick? May be 2009, or 2020, they would have yet different shade of Blue, what are we going to do? Start another discussion? It will be like never ending story.

Arilang talk 10:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are no set shades of blue. Some shows darker[4], some shows lighter [5]. but it's definitely not dark sapphire #082567! Blueshirts (talk) 17:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it ROC flags must have #082567[edit]

Black Sky White Sun, with #082567 embedded, put here for the purpose of comparison.


ROC flag in the Presidential Building. Readers please note, everything would look black under dim lighting
Readers please note, everything would look black under dim lighting
Readers please note, everything would look black under dim lighting

As far af I understand, en:Blue Sky with a White Sun flags took up a dark-blue-near-black appearance after Nov 2008, when IP user 128.208.37.186 convinced admin Zscout370 to insert #082567 in all the seven or eight svg files. This was then I complained, and voiced my opinions:

  1. #082567 is simply too dark for en:Blue Sky with a White Sun
  2. Since en:Republic of China had not published any law regarding the legal color, I myself, and all the editors taking part in this talk page, had one time or the other, agreeded to this fact.
  3. I had then upload quite a few ROC governments wed site official versions of en:Blue Sky with a White Sun, for the purpose of comparison, so that we might be able to reach some sort of consensus. But quite a few of them were deleted, but still a few remain on commons, still can be used as a reference.
  4. The sprit of en:Blue Sky with a White Sun is paramount in this discussion, and it is my belief that when #082567 is used, the sprit of en:Blue Sky with a White Sun is gone, because then en:Blue Sky with a White Sun flags would be turned into a Black flag, no longer a Blue flag.
  5. On this talk page, we have a few IP user, plus a Chinese user Shibo77, they all seem to have one purpose in mind, they all seem to argue that #082567 is the only right choice. I wonder why?
  6. My opinion is, the Blue color of File:Blue Sky-White Sun design on ceiling.jpg should be considered the limit of how dark the Blue can be. Like I said before, if we ever turn this Blue into #082567, Sun Yat-sen would certainly sit up in his tomb. Arilang talk 17:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You were asking Odder to change the shade of the flag to the shade of the KMT emblem which you found in the KMT website, now you are saying that the Blue Sky-White Sun design on ceiling should be considered. But the shades of the two evidences you provide are totally different. How can you explain and determine which one is better. Here is the most authoritative evidence I have shown you, the flag you see in the MOFA website. If you can find something which is more authoritative than this, I will be happy to accept. If not, please follow the MOFA's version.--216.189.167.118 22:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The lighting in each one of these photos above is not pristine, and are perhaps bad examples to support your argument. Some of the photos are downright grainy, quite old-looking, and of low quality. I agree with User:Arilang1234 that the #082567 shade is too dark and I believe the clearly-lit images in his links attest to this.--PericlesofAthens (talk) 01:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colours vary widely by computer and monitor[edit]

Something that everyone discussing the colors should be aware of is that what you see on your monitor may be very different from what someone else sees on their monitor. I even have a computer with two monitors, and the two don't show the same colors even though they are hooked up to the same computer.

Looking at a book and comparing to your computer screen, or comparing what you see on your computer screen to what you have seen on real flags, is not a good way to decide on the correct color.

Another problem that can occur is that computers are limited in the number of distinct colors they can display. If a website contains a color (perhaps a government website displaying a flag) and you try to grab that color to use in your own image, you may not get the exact color they were displaying. If you have your settings to display a huge number of colors, this shouldn't be much of a problem. But be aware of it. Readin (talk) 21:41, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colors again[edit]

IMHO the best colors are those used by official ROC websites. Here are two of them:

Mik (talk) 21:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Either one doesn't have the same shade what User Arilang claims to be which Odder has changed to.--72.45.35.93 22:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply from the Minister of the Interior regarding the colour[edit]

Regarding the colourcode, I sent an enquiry to Minister of Interior, and their reply is quoted as follows:

有關我國國徽國旗之制式及使用，係依中華民國國徽國旗法規定辦理，按該法第4條規定，中華民國國旗依憲法規定為紅地左上角青天白日。我國目前尚未規範國旗配色標準，惟繪製國徽國旗時仍應力求顏色之純正。

另有關我國陸海空軍旗規格則依據陸海空軍軍旗條例相關規定辦理，事屬國防部權責。

I literally translated this in English as:

Regarding the designs and uses of the national flag, the Law of National Flag and National Emblem of the ROC is followed, according to Article 4 of the Law, the National Flag of ROC is a wholly red flag with a 'blue sky and white sun' on the top left corner. Our country has not yet established a standard for the colour used on the National flag, nevertheless, the colour of the national flag and national emblem should achieve 'purity' of the colour when drawn.

On the other hand, the flags of national army, navy and air force should follow the Law of Flags of National Army, Navy and Air Force, and is the duty of the Ministry of National Defense.

Though this reply does not at all seem to help solve the dispute, I post it here anyway. I read this as: any flag following the description of "wholly red flag with a 'blue sky and white sun'"will be official.--Burgare (talk) 08:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If the goal is purity, then it would seem the correct blue should start with #0000 to eliminate any reds and greens. Some suggestions above are #000080, #00008B, #0000AA and #0000B7. Why not #0000FF? Readin (talk) 21:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Because "#0000FF" is kind of a "cartoony" color, which generally doesn't look good in combination with other colors (unless you're trying to achieve an overall "cartoony" effect...). AnonMoos (talk) 23:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A note from an outside editor[edit]

I start to regret that I have taken part in that seemingly never-ending discussion. odder 20:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for having restored the pictures. I guess the reason this discussion never end is that the ROC, unlike many countries, has never stated exactly what its official colors are. WikiLaurent (talk) 20:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Colors used by government websites[edit]

I've done a survey of the colors used by the government websites so as to figure out which color is the most common. Here are the results:

Source Red Blue
GIO - Yearbook 2008 #ED1B24 #333280
National Assembly #fe0000 #1c02a4
WTO website #fe0000 #000094
Overseas Office ROC #ed1c24 #0a5f9c
Army Command Headquarters N/A #010080
Navy Command Headquarters ROC N/A #1470a3
Air Force Command Headquarters ROC N/A #023880
Military Police ROC N/A #113faf
TECRO in the US #fe0000 #000094
TECO in Germany #fe0000 #010095
TECO in NY #fe0000 #000094
TECRO in the UK #fe0000 #000299
TECRO in Spain #fe0000 #000094
TECRO Japan #fe0000 #010194
TECRO Israel #fe0000 #020196
TECRO India #fe0000 #010297
TECRO Brasil #fe0000 #010194

Regarding the blue color, it seems that its red and green components are often 0 or very close to 0, which is consistent with the "purity" mentioned by the Ministry of Interior email. The blue component itself is often somewhere between 94 and 97, especially on the TECRO websites were the colors are quite consitent. Strangely enough the colors used by the main government websites are not consistent at all with each others as it goes from #1470a3 to #333280. Personnally, I'd go for #fe0000 and #000095 as they seem to be the most commonly used colors. WikiLaurent (talk) 11:52, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks WikiLaurent, you have done a good job. I agree with the color you pick. One more thing I like to say is, how do we know all those IP users on this talk page are not sock puppets? I think we should bar all those IP users when it comes to voting, or, only established users are allowed to vote. Arilang talk 22:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support #fe0000 and #000095 look good to me.
Regarding potential sock puppets. Sniff 'em. If they smell like feet, don't let them vote. Readin (talk) 03:53, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Supportx2 -- they're more or less the proper colors, at least on my screen. L (talk) 04:43, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

✓ Done Rocket000 (talk) 18:44, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All of the ROC flags should be changed too according to the result of this vote.--76.28.254.202 04:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I missed the debate (was in Japan), but I am satisfied by the outcome. As long we could agree on something, I am happy. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 07:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks admin Zscout370 for your support, at least we have reached a consensus. There is this little thing left:
  1. Please have a look:File:Emblem of the Kuomintang.svg

, user Wikilaurent upload a darker version which I think is not "pure blue" as is required by the Republic of China government. I have tried to reverted it back to the version you have uploaded on 18:37, 8 August 2009. If you could help to reverted it back to blue color of 18:37, 8 August 2009 version, and put it on full protection to prevent future accidental changing of color by inexperienced user? Thanks. Arilang Arilang talk 10:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've made newer survey for this, and I got these interesting results:

Thumbnail image on web page: #DF0012 #013686
Image downloaded from JPEG link: #DE0011 #003487
Thumbnail image converted from a base64 code copied from AI file: #DD000F #003487
Press image link at the section 相關圖片: #F20011 #0D149C

It would be nice to see anyone who can give a hand to make further survey. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 18:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

IP users: suspect sock puppets[edit]

  • 128.208.37.26
  • 222.166.160.40
  • 72.45.35.93
  • 216.189.167.118

The above four IP users all act and talk in unision, I suspect all these IP users are under one person control, I suggest they should be banned from voting. Arilang talk 05:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming they all are the same person, it may simply be a matter of the person having access to different computers at different times. Or perhaps he has DHCP. If he were using different user names, then it would make sense to ban him. But people don't always have control over what IP address the computer they are using has. Also, I don't see any instances where the editor is attempting to portray himself as different users - for example by referring to one of his other posts and saying how he agrees with it.
Rather than banning him from voting, I believe it would make more sense to limit him one vote if we are convinced that the posts are all coming from the same editor. Looking over his posts he seems to be making a good faith effort to contribute constructively, so I believe he would only vote once anyway. Readin (talk) 06:32, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other color wars[edit]

Currently, there seems to be another "blue war" with respect to the symbols of Slovenia (see File_talk:Flag_of_Slovenia.svg and recent uploads by User:Bugoslav). Previously there were "white wars" over the flags and symbols of Poland and Italy (over whether RGB color #ffffff should be used to represent flag white)... AnonMoos (talk) 08:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A List of Dependent Images[edit]

Flag of Italy did a good job of having the dependent images of the flag itself. I think it will be good for the Flag of ROC to have one too.--76.28.254.202 19:13, 27 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Add to category[edit]

Flags with Blue Sky White Sun

new cat[edit]

I'm sorting Category:SVG sovereign state flags alphabetically. Please edit cat tag to "Category:SVG sovereign state flags|China" Fry1989 (talk) 23:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

✓ Done. --ZooFari 01:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shades[edit]

According the Office of the President website, the shades of the flag are better be #013686 and #DF0012 respectively.--Lmmnhn (talk) 06:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you open the AI file, there is a lot of other shades used, and various images on that site give various shades. If you seen what we done before, there is not a lot of uniformity with the shades and this is an issue I do not wish to revisit unless we have something more concrete. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 17:07, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've extracted a JPG thumbnail from AI file and got color shades from there. See my comment above. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 09:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shade[edit]

I request a overturn of the consensus over the last edit as its legitimacy is highly doubtful. Firstly, it can hardly be called a consensus with only two votes of support. Secondly, the blue shade does not even match any sources from the governmental websites, including the one in the presidential website (#013686), nor its recommendation over the government website government website (#023e88). Now there is a discussion over the File talk:Republic of China National Emblem.svg where we, including User:Fry1989, User:Akira123 and User:Jitcji want to find a conformity of the shade of the flag and the emblem however User:Fry1989 insists the current shade is "accurate" whether the shade of the flag is not. I do think a consensus can be built without compromise and a discussion to revisit the shade of the flag.--Lmmnhn (talk) 12:18, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, what I insist is that the correct shade is whatever the Government says it is. If the Government said it was supposed to be purple, I'd have to accept it. I am tired of being accused here of inflexibility and ignoring facts when I am the only one actually observing them. The fact is the current blue on this flag DOES NOT match sources from the Government of the ROC. Fry1989 eh? 21:22, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest to take #000094, which was made use by four government websites mentioned above, to replace #000095.--Akira123 (talk) 07:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Neither are acceptable. This should be discussed on on the talk page of the Emblem. It only has one colour to deal with, this file has two. Spreading this too thin will get no results. Fry1989 eh? 19:27, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It has only one version to deal with which can solve the controversies of the flag and emblem at the same time. It is much more efficient than arguing one after one.--Lmmnhn (talk) 12:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It makes a thousand times more sense to deal with something one by one than two issues simultaneously. Fry1989 eh? 19:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the case of the shade of ROC's flag and emblem, there is only one thing because they are absolutely identical. It makes a thousand times more nonsensical to deal with things indistinguishable separately.--Akira123 (talk) 02:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They are NOT identical. The emblem only has one colour (blue) that is disputed. The flag has two colours (blue AND red) both which are disputed. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I've spelled it out for you a dozen times now. Fry1989 eh? 02:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The shade on both is the same because the emblem is identical to the upper canton of the flag. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Lmmnhn and I've spelled it out for you a dozen times now.--Akira123 (talk) 02:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Don't play stupid, and especially don't mimic me because you're incapable of forming your own reason. If you are unable to understand the very real point of taking things on at a time, that's fine. The Emblem file can be protected in perpetuity and I'm just as happy with that as with any other result. Fry1989 eh? 02:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You are the only one taking the shade on both separately, and you can only claim two colors on the flag as the only reason and show how stupid to ignore the fact that the emblem is absolutely identical to the upper canton of the flag.--Akira123 (talk) 04:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And how stupid of you to ignore that while yes, 1 quarter of the flag matches the emblem, the other 3/4 do not and use a different colour that is also disputed. I'm done here. If you're willing to discuss the matter properly instead of going around playing games, maybe I will reconsider, until then the Emblem can be protected in perpetuity. Fry1989 eh? 17:36, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Consider remove the <g> tag[edit]

It is requested that an edit or modification be made to this protected page.
Administrators: Please apply <nowiki> or {{Tl}} to the tag after the request is fulfilled.

Great Brightstar

In www.svgviewer.dev, I found it's useless to use the <g> tag even if I remove it from source code, so the source should be simplified as this: 

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="900" height="600"><path fill="#fe0000" d="M0 0h900v600H0Z"/><path fill="#000094" d="M0 0h450v300H0Z"/><path fill="#fff" d="m225 37.5 56.25 209.927858L127.57214 93.75 337.5 150l-209.927858 56.25L281.25 52.572142 225 262.5 168.75 52.572142 322.427858 206.25 112.5 150l209.927858-56.25L168.75 247.427858Z"/><circle cx="225" cy="150" r="60" fill="none" stroke="#000094" stroke-width="7.5"/></svg>

NOTE: Do not use your SVG-Edit toolkit to deliver this code, instead, you should save with a text editor, then upload it manually, because there is a bug affect this editor. --Great Brightstar (talk) 05:32, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • paint-order can be omitted too.
<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="900" height="600" fill="#fff"><path d="M0 0h900v600H0z" fill="#fe0000"/><path d="M0 0h450v300H0z" fill="#000095"/><path d="M225 37.5l-56.25 209.928L322.428 93.75 112.5 150l209.928 56.25L168.75 52.572 225 262.5l56.25-209.928L127.572 206.25 337.5 150 127.572 93.75 281.25 247.428 225 37.5"/><circle cy="150" cx="225" r="60" stroke="#000095" stroke-width="7.5"/></svg>

--Mike Rohsopht (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated my code above, which now has better precision. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 11:46, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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