File talk:Austric languages.png

Sources for the Austric theory: Here are some sources that include Japanese into the Austric theory: 1.(Wilhelm Schmidt' s Austric), 2.(Japanese, Austronesian and Altaic A study of possible connections(propose that Japanese is a mix language of austronesian/austric and altaic, or that japanese is of austric origin with altaic influence)), 3.(The Austric Substratum Influences and Cultural Influences in Japan: Aereal Hybridity and Cultural Contact), 4(The Austric languages).

Additional research: Support for linguistic macrofamilies from weighted sequence alignment(Japanese-Austroasiatic - Kra-Dai-Austronesian), Austro-Tai-Japanese — Preceding unsigned comment added by Satoshi Kondo (talk • contribs) 15:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Full of outdated studies and nationalist ideologies. They are not worth reading. 17:13, 12 October 2018 (UTC)Mendduets (talk)

Are you ok?? What on this scientific researches is "nationalist" and what kind of "nationalism" should that be? Western linguists are asian nationalist?!... and NO it is NOT outdated... where is your source? who say that it is outdated? where is your reference? Your argument is invalid, it is pure POV. As long as you can not discuss or actually read it. You say it is outdated but you do not even read it?!--Satoshi Kondo (talk) 20:51, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Also all other Austric sources are even older, so the total theory is outdated!?? then altaic and sino-tibetan and tai-kadai is also outdated or what? a scientific reserach does not get outdated. a theory stay a theory as long as it is supported by linguists or their research. if you find one linguist/one research that clearly debunk this than we can speak... but in the mean time your argument is POV, and a very badly one...--Satoshi Kondo (talk) 20:54, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

What did you say to me ? Every theory that associates Japanese to Austroasiatic, Austronesian, Tai-Kadai and Hmong-Mienic is pseudoscientific. The only valid theory for the origin of Japanese is either Korean-related or an isolated language (Alexander Vovin [1]). The macro-Austric theory is clearly pseudoscience. The only type of Austric family that seems to be valid is Austroasiatic+Austronesian (including Tai-Kadai) like the one that Lawrence A. Reid has worked on [2], [3]. Even the Austro-Tai theory has excluded Japanese right now (Ostapirat).

Only ignorant people like you get obsessed with the pseudocientific macro-Austric theory. Mendduets (talk) 22:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

I want to get the last thing off my chest. Read this if you haven't: The prehistoric peopling of Southeast Asia (2018). Mendduets (talk) 11:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

"Ignorant", "pseudosience".... you are completely POV pusher...(ALSO YOUR SOURCE IS FROM 1999 WHILE MY LATEST IS FROM 2015) you do also not understand how a scientific theory works. In all shown researches Japanese is included. This is not peudoscience... even your given Data does not exclude Japanese from Austric. It only say that it is still not prooven, but all evidence point out that Japanese is closer to the southeast asian languages (austric theory) than to northern asian (altaic theory). It is also said that Japanese is currently a Isolated-language, that means: it seems that Japanese is not related to any other language today. But many reconstructions of proto-Japanese show that it has strong similarities with austric and sino-tibetan languages. Even Juha Janhunen, say that proto-Japanese seems very close to sinitic, tai-kadai or austroasiatic.. Vovins reconstruction(2008) show that Proto-Japanese is of a southern origin and shows strong similarities with austroasiatic and tai-kadai. Ann Kumar show similarities between Javanese(austronesian) and Japanese.. Some older but still relevant research from Vovin show that many Japanese words about agriculture are cognats to tai and austroasiatic languages. and a new reserach from vovin from 2014 again suggest a origin of Japanese from Southern China. and that it was in strong contact with tai-kadai languages.. And than in 2015 the automatic linguistic analysis linked japanese to austroasiatic as already said.

This is from Vovin:

Gloss	Proto-Japonic	proto-Japonic accent	Proto-Tai	Tone in proto-Tai
Leaf	*pa	H	*Ɂbaï	A1
Side	*pia	H	*Ɂbaïŋ ?< OC *bʕâŋ	C1
Top	*po	H	*ʔboŋ	A1
Aunt	*-pa in *wo-n-pa	H	*paa 'elder sister of a parent'	C1
Wife, woman	*mia	L	*mia 'wife'	A2
Water	*na	L	*r-nam	C2
Fire	*poy	L	*vVy	A2
Tooth	*pa	L	*van secondary voicing in Tai branch	A2
Long	*nan-ka (space & time)	L-L	*naan (time)	A2
Edge	*pa, cf. also *pasi	H, HH	*faŋ 'shore, bank'	B1
Insert	*pak- 'wear shoes, trousers'	H	*pak	D1S
Mountain	*wo 'peak'	L	*buo	A2, A1 in NT
Split	*sak-	H	*čaak 'be separated'	D1L, š- in NT
Suck	*sup-	H	*ču[u]p onomatopoetic?	D1S/L, š- in NT
Get soaked	*sim-	H	*čim 'dip into' ?< Chin.	B1, C1, š- in NT
Slander	*sə/o-sir- cf. nono-sir-	H/L?, but philology indicates H	*sɔɔ 'slander, indicate'	A1
Cold	*sam-pu- cf. sam-as- 'cool it', samë- 'get cool'	L	NT *ǯam > šam	C2
Door	*to	H	proto-Tai *tu, but proto-Kam-Sui *to, pace Thurgood's *tu (1988:211)	A1
Wing	*pa > Old Japanese pa 'wing, feather'	H	proto-Kam-Sui *pwa	C1
Inside	*naka < *na-ka 'inside-place'	LH	proto-Tai *ʔd-naï	SW, Sukhothai A2, CT, NT A1

• Proto-Tai items are taken from Li, Fang Kuei 1977. A Handbook of Comparative Tai. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press.
• Li Fang-Kuei ï is equivalent to ɯ.
• NT = Northern Tai, CT = Central Tai, SW = Southwestern Tai.

The latest concensus is that Japanese is a language of isolated origin, but it is still included in the austric theory as a suggested member. Also mostly all now agree that the origin of Japanese is somewhere in southern China or possibly in the Shandong peninsula. Vovin showed that proto-Japanese was in strong contact with tai-kadai languages before in moved into Japan. You have clearly a personal emotion in this topic. Stop it. Satoshi Kondo (talk) 11:34, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Also you genetic research here has nothing to do with this topic. and this research is not even accepted by mainstream scientists. after this a chinese research team critizied it and concluded a different conclusion. another research showed that the jomon period people have close relationship to siberian populations. In June (ir July) a Japanese reserach team announced(2018) that they will make a major study about jomon origin and japanese people because of critic about the reserach you now linked here. The latest Japanese research show that Jomon are mostly of northern/siberian origin, while Yayoi are of southern origin. this shows also that the ainu and ryukyuans are closer to siberian and some koreans(strange but ok) and the yamato closer to most korean and chinese. Another study also said that koreans are basically the mix of paternal southeast asians from southern china and vietnam and maternal siberian womens. link: Satoshi Kondo (talk) 11:34, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Right, in the genetic study The prehistoric peopling of Southeast Asia, the general migration route of the Jomon is only generated by statistical method with solely one Jomon's DNA sample. The Southern origin of Japanese by Vovin is an adventurous study. But even Vovin admits that the idea is very unusual. The idea of the paper is not accepted by anybody. Japanese is not related to Tai-Kadai and it is unacceptable to link them together. Stop your zealotry about the southern origin of Japanese. Mendduets (talk) 12:17, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Please give a source where it is stated that this is not accepted by anybody. It is actually accepted and Vovin is regarded as one of the best specialists in this topic. Vovin does not say that his theory is unusual. He say that he do not belife that Japanese is directly related to Tai-Kadai. He say that Japanese originated in southern China and was in close contact to Tai-Kadai. He suggests (like Gerhard Jaeger) that Japanese is possibly related to Austroasiatic. But he also insists that Japanese show a relation to several southeast asian languages. He even say that the Yayoi language was of Austroasiatic origin based on today agricultural-words in Japanese and Juha Janhunen suggests a sinitic or hmong-mien language for the Yayoi. Fact is that proto-Japanese originated in southern china. This is already accepted by most mainstream linguists. Even in the paper from you (also from Vovin) he say that a northern origin is absurd and has no real relevance anymore. Now he say that Japanese is a unique isolated language, but it is surley possible that Japanese is distantly related to sino-tibetan, austroasiatic but also maybe austronesian(which is linked with tai-kadai also). And again. Benedicts Austric theory includes Japanese language. So there is no need to discuss anyway becaues the map is based on the Austric main theory, which is from Benedict. I guess you are a ethnic tai-speaking person in vietnam or? You clearly have POV about this topic. I do not know why. Explain it. Fact is: Japanese is inclueded in the Austric theory. Satoshi Kondo (talk) 14:23, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Here another information: You said, Vovins work is "unusual"... but here he say that his work is partially based on other linguistic researches: "Proto-Japonic reconstruction is my own(Vovins), but owing much to the work of my predecessors: Hattori (1978-79), Martin (1987), Whitman (1985), and Hayata (1998). Proto-Ryūkyūan reconstruction is mostly based on Thorpe (1983), with some modifications." Than he says:"I must start with a general note, that Benedict’s idea that Japanese and Tai-K(r)adai are related (1989), should not be rejected out of hand, as I did twenty years ago (Vovin 1994), although I still disagree with Benedict that the relationship is genetic, as I think that although the realationship does exist, it is a contact one. Given the regular correspondences on both segmental and supra-segmental levels between pJ(proto-Japanese) and pTK(proto-Tai-Kadai), the relationship does not seem to be accidental. ..." and concluded that this is the end of the theoretical northern origin of japanese:"And finally driving the last nail to the coffin of the ‘Altaic’ hypothesis." (as last and non linguistic evidence for the southern origin is the fact of similar buildings (Japanese hokora and Thai spirit houses) as the cultural trait of tatoos and teeth blackening.) And here: Ostapirat 2013 about Austro-Tai group in the Austric theory about Japanese:"I would like to define this clearly at the beginning because the KDI AN connection as proposed by Benedict (1942, 1975, 1990) has always been part of the grander schemes that include more language groups such as Austroasiatic, Miao-Yao, and Japanese." So your claim that no one accept this is completely wrong. Japanese is one of the included members of the proposed Austric family and has to be included. Greetings Satoshi Kondo (talk) 17:07, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Although Vovin's article, Out of Southern China? has been published since 2014, but it has never been cited by anybody except for a Filipino researcher from Manila University who seems to be enthusiastic about connecting Austronesian to Japanese. That's why I said earlier about nationalist ideologies. The lack of citation of Vovin's 2014 paper shows that nobody has taken his idea seriously. Where did Vovin say his idea is very unusual ?, It's his preface of the presentation file writing that his idea is a mad idea.

Ostapirat 2013 defines Austro-Tai as Austronesian+Tai-Kadai. Ospatirat 2018 [4] excludes Hmong-Mienic and Sino-Tibetan from the relationship to Tai-Kadai, and confirms that only Tai-Kadai and Austronesian are connected, not anything else.

You are pretty much an unusual Japanese who gets obsessed with the Southern Origin of Japanese idea like a zealot. Possibly, being a person of Okinawan origin makes you attached to the South rather than the North. Nevertheless, almost all of the Japanese from the main islands who have some interest in linguistics and history would never consider the Southern Origin scenario. Stop your zealotry about such an idea. Mendduets (talk) 20:58, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Ostapirat speaks about Austro-Tai, yes. And she say that Austro-Tai only includes Austronesian and Tai-Kadai. But she accepts the greater Austric view of Benedict that the suggested included members of Austric are: Hmong-Mien, Austroasiatic, Japanese and also the Austro-Tai. This does not mean that Japanese is Austro-Tai or that she belive the austric theory, but she accepts the included members as suggested languages. As all evidence point to a Japanese-Austroasiatic relation you have not to worry about Tai language here at all. But still: Japanese is one of the proposed members of Austric. This does not even have anything to do with Vovins research that also suggest that Japanese is related to Austroasiatic. Benedict created the main-theory about Austric. And the Austric articel and map is mainly based on Benedicts reseach which clearly include the Japanese language.

And to the claim that most Japanese are not interested in the southern origin is only wrong. Do you know how many Japanese linguists have southern origin theories? Mostly based on Austronesian, but since 2015 the austroasiatic-japanese theory is growing stronger than any other theory. There is also Hmong theory. Others base their works on the Austric theory of benedict and propose this language was spoken several thousand of years ago in southern and eastern china. Not to mention the "ever green forest culture theory". Maybe you mean Hokkaido-Japanese with the more liked northern theories. But that is mostly because of Ainu or such things. As Jomon have northern origin, some belive that Japanese also originated in north, but they ignore the fact that yayoi is from southern china. So it depends on what someone belive. (Jomon theory=all japanese have northern origin/Yayoi theory=most Japanese have southern origin). And yes, i have a link to ryukyuan ethnic. I do not say that Japanese is related to Tai-Kadai. I say Japanese is possibly related to Austroasiatic. And included in the Austric theory. And that is a fact. So if you like or not, Japanese is possibly also related to Tai-Kadai. But again: Japanese is maybe related to Austroasiatic first. Only if the Austric theory is true, then Japanese is also somewhat related to tai-kadai. And why you are so into the deletion of japanese from this theory? Do you dislike japanese or austroasiatic? Satoshi Kondo (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

No need to write lengthy. Ostapirat disagrees with Benedict greater Austro-Tai theory which include Hmong-mienic, Japanese, Austroasiatic. I have nothing against either Japanese or Austroasiatic (just a linguistic concept). What irritates me is your zealotry of the pseudoscientific greater Austric theory and greater Austro-Tai theory, blindly trying to put in Japanese. Mendduets (talk) 06:56, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

You do not understand what is say... or what Ostapirat is saying... I do not say that Japanese belong to ("greater"???) Austro-Tai. I say that Japanese is included in the Austric theory. And that is a fact. Benedict, Vovin and also Ostapirat accept that Japanese is one of the suggested members of the Austric family. Do you understand english!? Japanese is a suggested member of the Austric theory. And why you comment with an IP on my talkpage? I know who you are. So do not try to hide behind different names or ips. The other IP i also know now. How funny. The good thing is that i know people that can clearly say who is who so i only need to ask them if you try again. If you can nos speak or read/understand meaningfull english than say in what language you want to speak. Fact is that this discussion is now ENDED. The map is based on Benedicts Austric theory and he includes Japanese. If you have a problem with that make your own map of whatever... and now stop wasteing my time. Satoshi Kondo (talk) 13:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

And here another reserach about "Proto-Asian". This theory even say that Japanese AND Korean are related to austronesian, tai-kadai, hmong-mien, austroasiatic and so on... see Satoshi Kondo (talk) 14:04, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

No Need to write lengthy. It's you who can't understand Engish. The commonly accepted Austro-Tai is Tai-Kadai+Austronesian. The commonly accepted Austric is Austronesian+Austroasiatic. Any expanded theory that includes other language family into these two commonly accepted models is called "greater theory". I don't want to continue this pointless discussion any further. It should be stopped here.

IP is not mine. You have been on Wikipedia for too long, and attracted a lot of enemies that even your cross-Wikipedian edits have been watched by anonymous users. That means that this discussion has been watched closely also. Mendduets (talk) 19:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

You clearly do not understand it. Austro-Tai is only austronesian and tai-kadai. But the austric theory is austronesian+austroasiatic+japonic+hmong-mien+tai-kadai. This was researched by benedict. and supported by several other linguists. Ostapirat do not even talk about austric. only about austro-tai. but she accept that austronesian and tai-kadai are also included in the theoretical austric theory. This is what she is saying: "I would like to define this clearly at the beginning because the KDI AN connection as proposed by Benedict (1942, 1975, 1990) has always been part of the grander schemes that include more language groups such as Austroasiatic, Miao-Yao, and Japanese." so she clearly accepts that japanese is inclueded as SUGGESTED MEMBER of Austric. Do you can even read english? I think you only do not want to understand. Satoshi Kondo (talk) 14:19, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Both of you seem to have a POV view. But I agree that the main members are austroasiatic and austronesian. All other included members are only sometimes or rarely accepted as austric. I have overworked the english articel to represent the actual sources. I suggest you: The map should only include Austroasiatic and Austronesian. Not japonic, not kra-dai and not hmong-mien. Satoshi Kondo, you can make a greater austric map if you hardly insist on this. The current map should be changed to only include Austroasiatic-Austronesian as this is the mainstream view of Austric. Both of you should now work together to contribute to wikipedia. And both of you should stop to abuse the other. Greetings and keep calm. --81.171.26.6 16:14, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Now I see that Satoshi Kondo is blocked in the english wikipedia, please refrain from attacking other users or I have to block you here aswell, I currently can not use my account, but be warned. Edit-war rule is here active aswell. Conclusion: Map should be changed. I agree with Mendduets view but again say that only Austroasiatic and Austronesian should be included. So i hope this discussion is now over and we can move on. --81.171.26.6 16:58, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Benedict do not speak about greater austric or whatever. he say japanese is part of the suggested austric family... read the source! if you change it then i will surley make my own map. Satoshi Kondo (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

It's you who cannot read English. Ostapirat writes that Austro-Tai (AT) in this talk refers to a language family to which Kra-Dai (KD) and Austronesian (AN) belong, as sister languages. He defines Austro-Tai as Austronesian+Tai-Kadai as oppose to Laurent Sagart's definition stating that Tai-Kadai = a subbranch of Austronesian. Mendduets (talk) 18:38, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

No it is you, I do not even speak about austro-tai. I speak about austric... Satoshi Kondo (talk) 19:21, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

81.171.26.6, if you are an administrator at this project, log in. If you can't, don't pretend that you are an administrator. Jcb (talk) 20:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

I know a group of people who made it, but not ordinary Vietnamese users

A group of oversea Vietnamese have strong connection with the Vietnamese states and the Vietnam's Communist party central propaganda agency. Purpose to promote Pan-Malay hypothesis/Pro-ASEAN nationalism over the modern sea dispute with Communist China. As historians and scientists revealed that Kinh Vietnamese ethnic original were not Austroasiatic or Austronesian, but the state-sponsored media in Vietnam is claiming the main population are Southeast Asian and show xenophobia against Chinese, since to gain more supports from racist Sinophobic right-wingers in among America, Japan, South Korea, ASEANs and Russia. Zhu Zi Ling (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2020 (UTC)