File talk:Alawite Distribution in the Levant.png

Hatay

From whence comes the idea that Hatay has an Alawite majority? Of the source maps only the Columbia map even shows Turkey, and that shows only an Alawite minority over roughly a third of the province: along the central stretch of coast, roughly from Iskenderun to the northern fringes of Antakya, and at the southernmost fringes. —Quintucket (talk) 22:33, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The columbia map doesn't necessarily show an alawite minority in Hatay province, it is merely implying that there is a significant sunni presence, but the Alawites themselves continue to have a simple majority throughout Hatay with exception of Reyhanli and antakya and iskenderun cities. Cheers and thanks for the comment. Moester101 (talk) 00:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd still like to know where you're getting this. The Columbia map shows most of Hatay as some mixture of Sunni and Alevi. And the Alevi, despite what some occasionally claim, are a completely different group from the Alawites. —Quintucket (talk) 19:06, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Answer to Quintucket: In Turkish both of the groups are called "Alevi", so, the Alevi population in Hatay are Alawites.

Then it must be the text that is wrong. Although the alevi and alawite share some beliefs they are distinct sects. the alawites are largely concentrated in the hatay province (the province which is predominantly arab), whereas most of the alevis (kurds and turks) who are non-arab, are concentrated in the eastern regions of turkey (anatolia etc.) that is farther north towards east-central turkey.

The source of the map is still not told. I am pretty sure that there is no Alawites in the northern parts (Payas, Dörtyol, Erzin) of Hatay, and even in the north of Iskenderun. I am an Alawite and I live in Hatay. To help you, the Alawite population starts from the city center of Iskenderun in the north to Samandag in the south, excluding Belen (there is only a very small Alawite minority in Belen). There are no Alawites in Dörtyol, Erzin, Payas, Hassa, Reyhanli, Kirikhan, Yayladagi, Kumlu and Altinozu. Well, if you ask "where is your source?", I'd reply "where is your source?".

Tal Kalakh

I have noticed that you have labelled the region of tal-kalakh as having a minority of alawites (Tal kalakh is in homs province near lebanon border, where krak-de chevaliers castle is located). Although there are some sunnis living there it is simply untrue that they are a majority there, and the christians are more concentrated near wadi-al nasara to the east (near homs north of qusayr). The greater region around tal-kalakh has an alawite majority, with all the villages surrounding the town being predominantly alawite, and even the city of tal-kalakh itself is mixed with sunni-alawi (it has since become alawite majority because the regime drove away most of the sunnis from the region towards lebanon and damascus)

Hi. First, the town of Talkalakh itself was (before uprising) and still is almost homogeneously Sunni, even if all of its surrounding villages are Alawi, and the town itself is equal in number to the population of all its surrounding villages combined. Second, you mention that it is now an Alawi town after regime drove off the Sunnis, but that's not true as the town continues to be occupied by FSA with regime only on the outskirts, so that's why I said earlier that this town remains homogeneously Sunni, especially since its few alawi residents fled after FSA take-over. As for the Christians in Wadi Al-nasara, you completely mislocated the wadi, b/c you say it's between homs and qusair, but the reality is that the wadi is actually right next to Tal Kalakh, on it's eastern side, with towns such as Hawash, almouzeina, Alnasra, and marmarita all predominantly Christian, which is another point against your arguement that western Homs province is Alawi majority (as you were trying to say). And that my friend is why I labeled Western part of Homs province as a significant alawi minority (b/c it is very evenly split between sunni alawi and christian). Moester101 (talk) 04:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

From what sources did you get the fact that tal-kalakh is homogeneously sunni? my sources of Tal-kalakh being mixed comes from the writings of journalist nir-rosen who visited the town and described it as having some subdivisions as alawi-dominated and some subdivisions as being sunni-dominated. Also I'm not sure that all the surrounding villages combined are smaller than tal-kalakh town itself, if you could provide sources stating that fact it'd be appreciated, because i noticed in the census data of 2004 that whereas the talkalakh subdivision itself (including surrounding villages not just town) had a population of 62 000 the city only had a population of 26 000 that means surrounding villages and areas outnumbered the town. Keep in mind that this was before the uprising, and many sunnis have fled the town. With regards to wadi nasara, that was my mistake i thought it was between homs and talkalakh (north of qusayr) so thanks for clearing that up - however im curious to know how far is the region from homs, is it a few kilometers or right next to it?

Finally, with regards to the activity of the FSA, keep in mind that their activity is severly limited in that town, and the few videos coming out of there are similar to those in salma, Latakia, where there are a few fighters defending/clashing against syrian soldiers (whose size and presence are not shown in videos), however if you have contacts there (as i do) you will have heard that syrian army has checkpoints all around the city and many inside it, so FSA activity (and even revolutionary activity like protests) are limited to a few areas in the town itself. If you dont still believe me, just take a look at the recent aljazeera english report about tal-kalakh where the few FSA fighters there are under seige from army in other parts of town (alawite areas) and surrounding villages. In this situation it would be hard for FSA to drive out the alawites out of town when there are few FSA fighters there. Compare this to the FSA in qusayr and homs where they are in control of most of the town/city and as a result have driven away the christians and regime forces, or compare it to Rastan or Talbiseh where the rebels control all of the city and the regime can only surround it far away with checkpoints and shell/bombard it from afar. one final point about the tal-kalakh region - even many of your sources for the map presents that region as having alawite majority (not even mixed sunni-alawi as you claim).

Jisr al Shagour

I have also noticed that you have labelled the region of jisr-al shagour (western-most region of idlib province near turkish border) as having no alawites. That is simply untrue because the villages surrounding the town of jisr-al shagour are mostly alawite, and even some towns in the region (like Janoudiyah) are predominantly alawite. At the very least it should be labelled as having a significant alawite minority if not slight majority.

Hello again. I did research on the topic, here's some stuff that might interest you. First, the major city itself (Jisr alshughur) was and still is homogeneously Sunni. Second, even the town of Janudiya that you mentioned was slightly more sunni than alawi, although that has changed now since FSA took over and alawis fled. As for the little villages in far-western Idlib province, I found out that yes they do exist, but not in the way that you were mentioning. For example, not all west Idlib villages are alawi (take Bdama as example). So after considering the Alawi presence in west Idlib province compared to Sunnis, it breaks down to about 10-15% versus 85-90% (not considering the rest of Idlib province, only west Idlib). In other words what I'm trying to say is that although Alawis are definitely present in west Idlib, they are not what I labeled in the map as "significant alawite minority" considering they have to be at least 20% (and up to 50%) for their presence to show itself and be considered significant minority. If I were to consider such small percentages of Alawis in the picture, then almost half of Syria would have at least a little bit of Alawis! Let's not make the map any more complicated than it already is. Thanks, bye. Moester101 (talk) 04:30, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for replying. Could you give me the sources of your information? unless of course your sources are inside syria, in which case i will understand since i also have friends/relatives inside syria. With regards to the amount of alawites inhabiting the region, I got the information from 3 types of sources: sources inside syria, recent and past news articles and FSA/opposition activity. With regards to sources inside, I got the information from a friend (he is alawite and neutral if that matters) that there is nearly no FSA activity in janoudiyah, except that there are some fighters near the town storing weapons and having weapons caches and safe houses, but other than that most of the military is in control of the town and of those that left almost all are sunni (yes some are still living here but most alawites are still here) he says that FSA has not opted to start fighting in that region and haven't killed or chased away any civilians (alawite or other). Secondly from the other type of source, from a past article (i think it was NY times) it was reported that militias from nearby alawite areas and villages in jisr-al shagour division like Ishtabraq had come into sunni villages and the town of jisr al-shagour itself (similar to houla) but they didn't kill them (this was back in june 2011 before houla) but chased them away into turkey and made the town itself a ghost town (similar to al haffeh in latakia) and now many alawites have moved in into those areas of the town (just like homs), but my point wasn't to say that alawites there are majority or even a slight majority - it was to say that that area of jisr al-shagour (west of orontes rives) is not homogeneously sunni, and keep in mind that most of the sunni population in that area have fled whereas most of the alawites have either stayed or moved in (according to my 2 previous sources). Its similar to salma where most of the civilian population fled but the fighters (young men) remain there, except here there are little clashes. This brings me to my last type of source, and based on the past FSA activity in that region it seems rather limited despite having an overwhelming sunni majority like you said. Most other regions that are entirely sunni (al-bab and aazaz in aleppo) or near majority sunni (homs) have had lots of FSA activity there and compared to them here it is mostly silent (apart from a few clashes which are similar to areas in tal-kalakh and north-eastern latakia.

Original research

After reading this talk, it's clear that a lot of details here are merely original research. Published maps should be used as reference, not personal speculation. FunkMonk (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

north-eastern latakia region (jabal akrad)

I have also noticed that the north eastern region of latakia (recently named jabal-akrad) has been illustrated as all sunni despite to the contrary. Many alawite villages are located around this area and their population may even have outnumbered the sunni population before the uprising (at the very least today they are a significant minority there because rebels have not chased many alawites away from the area), this is based on my personal accounts and visits to the area in 2010 and talks with the villagers in the area. one large town the area neglects is called slanfah which has been described as predominantly alawite (and even had pro-assad protestors blocking un-visits to the haffah town). I know many people will not believe me because the current uprising has skewed the facts and demographics and made some biased, so here is a source that describes one of those alawite towns in that region: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Sep-19/188500-syria-alawites-live-in-calm-beside-sunni-neighbours.ashx#axzz29NWQWLRE

Extent

The extent of the Alawite region is far beyond what's shown in the Columbia map. For example, the areas of Banias, Jableh and Haffeh are predominantly sunni, but they are shown to be Alawite in this map. عمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• Many maps are used as reference. You need to show evidence to the contrary. FunkMonk (talk) 18:59, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

This is the map I mean, which is the most detailed and most correct. The Wikipedia one is too generalizing. عمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 17:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Qusayr region must be changed as alawite mixed

Assad forces have ethnic cleansed the region of qusayr,and brought alawite settlers into the villages Assad regained,I advise that the qusayr region be. Marked a either alawite dominated or with alawite presence same as the stripes done in Lebanon.Alhanuty (talk) 01:29, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

According to what? FunkMonk (talk) 06:08, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Per http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/syrian-army-renews-offensive-homs.Alhanuty (talk) 23:45, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Erm, you do know that Elizabeth O'Bagy is a paid liar, who got fired for faking her credentials, right? FunkMonk (talk) 00:07, 24 December 2013 (UTC)