Review
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 Comment This image has been put forward several weeks ago, without being commented since its nomination. To me, the scope seems very narrow (and possibly rather delicate, because of the geopolitical entailments that this scope may evoke). --Myrabella (talk) 08:22, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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- Thanks for answering to my invitation for more comments :-). I would say I find it narrow, as I would find narrow, taking an exaggerated fictive example, such a scope as "Contemporary calvinist cemeteries outside Swiss". The chosen scope must be broad enough to be realistically useful to somebody who wishes to search the VI repository (see Commons:Valued image scope). Moreover, the nominated image shows the modern part of a cemetery existing since a longer time, if I understand the description correctly; it isn't a "contemporary cimetary" strictly speaking. The description says also that it "looks much like contemporary German graveyards" so if the main feature is this similarity, one can wonder if it is worth a specific scope. @Ikar.us: is this cemetery entirely Jewish, or does the image depict the Jewish part of an ordinary cemetery? --Myrabella (talk) 07:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Request about description - By the way, please amend the description: "looks much like contemporary German graveyards" seems incorrect and controversial to me. The photographied tombs can be those of people being Jews and German --Myrabella (talk). 08:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC).[reply]
- I guess there are several thousand active Jewish communities than calvinist communities in the world, most of then having graveyards.
- The two Jewish cemeteries (orthodox and liberal) are adjacent to the general cemetery, but separate, having their own entrances.
- Yes, the cemetery exists since 1897. In the background are older parts. So we see a freshly established Grabfeld. I searched for an image of a really new cemetery, but didn't find one.
- --Ikar.us (talk) 10:23, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Let's take the easy route to deciding whether the scope is valid: Can you link us to some Wikipedias with articles that this seems useful to? By getting an idea of how such articles are divided up, we can decide if this is a useful scope. Adam Cuerden (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Oppose: Oddly, the scope both seems too narrow, by excluding Israel, and too broad, by treating all Jewish culture outside of Israel as one and the same. No justification for this odd division has been given. Suggest considering other scopes, to find a more natural division. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's not helpful to dismiss the answer before it's given.
- The bisection between the en:Land of Israel and en:Jewish diaspora is always a matter in Jewish culture, as well as the question of en:Jewish assimilation in the diaspora.
- Seen practically, most things in Israel are Jewish, and many Jewish things are concentrated in Israel. And they are alle still growing. In the rest of the world, they are more or less exceptions.
- Seen wikipedially, see e.g. en:Category:Images of Jewish cemeteries, which has only one subcategory, Images of Jewish cemeteries in Israel. Or see en:Jewish cemetery. The article is disappointingly short, but one of the few sentences deals with adjustment to local traditions. (en:Bereavement in Judaism is a bit better. fr:Cimetière juif seems mainly advice to visitors.)
- In knowledge sources outside Wikiedia, e.g. books about Jewish history and traditions, I find that many reports and examples about cemeteries explain how much in each epoch Jewish traditions were adhered to or neglected in favour of local christian costumes. So the question, how is it manifest recently, is natural.
- About 'treat all one and the same', of course, it would be fine to have a VI set with examples from all over the world. Are there more candidates? Anyway, besides of being in my operating range, a German example is somewhat representative, beacuse Germany has had the fastest growing Jewish population during past decades (emigrants from former Sovjet Union).
- --Ikar.us (talk) 11:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I should point out I did wait a day for an answer, and there had been other, similar comments. I think I'd much, much rather have a scope on the lines of "in Europe", which this would be a fairly good illustration for, as opposed to try to make Germany typical of the non-Israeli world. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I try to use Germany as an example for an country with rapidly growing Jewish population. This is not the whole world, only a very small part.
- In the context of Jewish culture, "in Eurpoe" is a very strange suggestion for fraction the world, throwing together parts of ashkenazi and sephardic regions. ::::--Ikar.us (talk) 20:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Awkward. But I think that Ashkenazi and Sephardic graveyards in Europe would look more like each other than, say a Jewish graveyard in a Muslim country, or in East Asia, or South America, etc, etc, would. Thoughts? Adam Cuerden (talk) 14:25, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- A personal though: all at one time, this photograph tells a story of old settlements, more recent immigration, assimilation, and says also that life (yes, life) has started again after WWII and the Shoah. In this respect, the fact that is has been taken in Germany makes it even more evocative. But it's difficult to sum up all this in a single, sensible ans relevant scope. I agree with Adam Cuerden, the present scope both seems too narrow, by excluding Israel, and too broad. Restricting it to Europe isn't adequate either. We may have examples in the U.S. (e.g. File:Ahavas Chesed 02.JPG depicts a a rather freshly established Grabfeld too, doesn't it?). And how to translate 'Grabfeld'? (my dictionary only indicates that it is a region in Germany...) --Myrabella (talk) 10:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Grabfeld is an administrative sector within a cemetery. Directions to a special grave would lokk like "Grabfeld F5, third row, 6th grave". Usually a Grabfeld is reserved for either coffins or urns. Most have specific regulations for size and decoration of the graves, to avoid discrepancies between neighboued graves. Some are dedicated to specific groups, e.g. catholic clergy, unborn children, muslims, etc. I guess avery nation that has cemeteries has also Grabfelder and a term for it in its lamguage, but it seems difficult to find translations. See e.g. [1], where they didn't find a valid translation. (The one who answered even didn't know the term and misunderstood it as unreligious synonym for Friedhof. However, most Friedhöfe are run by municipalities and not affiliated with any religion.)--Ikar.us (talk) 15:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This was one of the first VIs I nominated. At that time thought a typical scope represents a large field of interest. Wanted wo name it simply "contemporary Jewish cemetery", but then was afraid that it would be presumptous to compete with Israel on a contemporary topic and therefore narrowed it to diaspora. Since this term is also controversial,I worded it "outside Israel". Now that I've learned that most scopes are a specific topic, I'd narrow it to "contemporary Jewish cemetery in Germany". --Ikar.us (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the Alabama example. Accorsing to the dates, it's a bit older, but still recent. It shows a more conservative style, with stone tombs and hebrew inscriptions. --Ikar.us (talk) 16:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- First off, thank you for proposing VICs within ambitious scopes, even if those are sometimes difficult to deal with and need some adjustments. "Contemporary Jewish cemetery in Germany" could be a more suitable scope, and reviewers would still have images to check through in the numerous related category and subcat. --Myrabella (talk) 06:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Scope changed from contemporary Jewish cemeteries outside Israel to Contemporary Jewish cemetery in Germany Ikar.us (talk) 14:50, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please notify previous voters of this change. Remember: "A support vote that was made before a change of scope is not counted unless it is reconfirmed afterwards; an oppose vote is counted unless it is changed or withdrawn".
 Support with this new scope now.--Jebulon (talk) 14:37, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]- Comment The new scope makes sense, see discussion above. Within this scope, some competitors exist. e.g. File:Juedischer Friedhof Mannheim 34 fcm.jpg. I found that third one, File:JuedischerFriedhofHLMoislingneueGraeber.jpg, particularly interesting with regard to the discussion above. --Myrabella (talk) 06:51, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. The second has too much covering snow and reflecting water IMO. The third I had found myself and would have nominated it instead of mine - if there wasn't that striking green watering can, which is too much of what I wanted to show. Perhaps it was just the photographer's own can, and he removed it afterward, but it looks awkward and perhaps compromising to me, because storing ugly gardening tools on graves is often regarded as objectionable. --Ikar.us (talk) 12:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- These are sound arguments. I found also File:Wuppertal - Jüdischer Friedhof am Weinberg 04 ies.jpg, pointed out just for information, because the overhead power line makes it too much contemporary ;-) moreover, the current candidate shows an older part in the background as noticed and that adds value IMO. I am now convinced that the nominated image is the most valuable for the scope and I Support. --Myrabella (talk) 13:16, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I withdraw my oppose but suggest "Contemporary Jewish cemeteries in Germany" seems more in line with how we describe other scopes: Itmake it sounds more like it's meant to represent cemetaries in Germany as a whole (which it is), but the singular term sounds more like a description of the image, than marking it as an exemplar. This is nitpicking, though, so I Support as-is or my suggested modified wording. Also, I really should try to start writing in simpler English here. I'll try to fix this later, but I'm worn out from not getting much sleep. Adam Cuerden (talk) 11:10, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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