Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:Senlis Cathedral Sanctuary, Picardy, France - Diliff.jpg

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File:Senlis Cathedral Sanctuary, Picardy, France - Diliff.jpg, featured[edit]

Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes.Voting period ends on 26 Aug 2015 at 13:09:43 (UTC)
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File:Senlis Cathedral Sanctuary
Extended discussion regarding hints and tips for panoramic photography
      • I don't mean the geeky LR/PS tricks that a bit of internet digging can get me, but the field ones that are harder to realize. How you plan a trip? Choose your framing? Timing? You choose a specific moment? Do you forecast how light illuminate a subject? Do you care if people are in the way? How you cope up with wind (ok not in church but...) and make sure you camera remains still when doing 5 long exposures? How you see that a specific lighting will render good or not? If not how you plan to alter it to get the intended result? And most important how you get your wife to wait you when you are shooting (assuming she accompanies you)... And yes I live in Torcy, next to Disneyland (a very nice photo spot). I'm of Chinese and Lao descent and wouldn't be happy if you turn up with a church nearby and don't let me know :) - Benh (talk) 21:20, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ah yes, I suppose all those little tricks. Well, maybe you're right that it's best explained/shown in person, but a lot of it comes from good equipment and experience. But here's a few basic things that contribute to high quality panoramas. Generally, I try to visit churches on overcast days, as they provide the best lighting (and often a church looks best when there is an equilibrium between natural light through windows and artificial light, although not always). I can deal with strong sunlit days, but sometimes the stained glass is hard to work with even with HDR - it's not that you can't capture the dynamic range, it's that it's difficult to process it in such a way that the glass looks realistic. But really, the worst situation is when the sun is going in and out of the clouds every 30 seconds or so. That makes panoramas incredibly frustrating as you can imagine. It's also sometimes important to think about shadows. With long exposures and sometimes having to wait up to 15 minutes for people to get out of the way to complete a panorama, the movement of the sun actually means that if a shadow is shared between frames that were taken at significantly different periods of time, then it won't blend properly. So I try to consider this effect and reshoot neighbouring frames again, just in case I need them for blending later. But no, I don't go as far as forecast how light will illuminate the building. Usually I just turn up and hope for the best. With London-based churches, if it doesn't work, I'm happy to revisit another day. Also, as we discussed in one of Poco's recent nominations, it's worth shooting the same frame more than once, even if there's someone in the shot. You are of course hoping that they will leave and you can finally shoot that empty segment, but many times I've had the frustration of one person leaving and another taking its place within seconds! As long as they don't sit in exactly the same place, you can shoot the frame again and then use masking to remove each 'unwanted' section' from it. I'm sure you know this already, but it's one thing to know it in theory, but another to have the experience to plan for it. How do I ensure the camera remains still for 5 seconds? (actually it's as much as 30 seconds in dark churches). Well, a good tripod, a good panoramic head and a 2-second timer is all I need, to be honest. I don't even use a remote trigger. I do use live view though which keeps the mirror lifted and minimises the vibration caused by the camera. I also use Magic Lantern for its extra live view features, like focus peaking, focus distance information and hyperfocal calculator. Actually this is very important, because it allows me to confidently set the focus distance at about 7-8 metres for my 50mm lens at f/13 (my 'usual' focal length and aperture for these wide angle panoramas - the right balance for detail, sharpness and depth of field), knowing I'll have good focus from infinity to about 2 metres (once the image is downsampled somewhat). I wouldn't have so much confidence that my focus distance was exactly set correctly without the focus distance information in the display. The actual information that the lens provides isn't super accurate. It only has steps so it jumps from 3 metres to 7 metres to 12 metres to infinity. But this focus difference is just a few millimetres of movement on the focus ring so there's no way I'd be able to rely on the focus distance measurements on the lens itself. Another useful trick I use is to imagine the boundaries of the completed panorama. With wide angle panoramas and in tight interior spaces, it's easy to make the mistake of assuming that every part of what you photograph will be included in the final framing. That would be true for some projections, but certainly not for rectilinear! It's particularly an issue with foreground objects like seating (or like in the case of DXR's recent nomination, the stone 'area'). Often I will set up my tripod just behind the first row of seats in the middle of the nave aisle. In this position, you can't actually see the first row of seats looking down the middle. When you rotate the pano head to the far left or far right of your intended panorama, the seats come into view and probably there will be plenty of space below the seating, but you cannot trust that just because they fit comfortably in the frame on the sides that they will be so in the frame of the final panorama because the edges bend outwards in a rectilinear view. Again, I'm sure you already know this, but it's important to factor this in when framing the shot and I don't think everyone necessarily does this. What I do is find an object or pattern on the floor of the aisle that is nearer to me than the seats (I imagine a line that extends perpendicularly from that point on the ground to my left and right, and I make sure that this line is nearer to the camera than the seating). I then ensure that when previewing the 'bottom middle' shot that this object/pattern clearly in view, because this guarantees that the seating will be the frame when stitched linearly, and will be the 'optimal' composition. This is all much easier to explain in person of course, or to demonstrate with real examples - text is always an awkward vehicle for explaining panoramas and projections and geometry but I hope you get the point I'm making. In summary, it's a good idea to visualise the boundaries of your panorama in rectilinear projection, as it can differ from what you think your camera will capture. As for my wife, sometimes she comes with me (and often eventually loses patience!), other times I try to schedule some 'me time' where we do different things... An important thing in any marriage. ;-) Anyway, that's more than enough hints and tricks for you. It's an art as much as it is a science though, and I don't always get it right. Diliff (talk) 22:45, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • That was a lot to digest :) and it was very interesting. And yes it's easier to see it for real. But still I learnt quite a few things. Notably, I've always wanted to install Magic Lantern, and this might make me jump on the bandwagon :) For composing, I think I get something easier. I've mentioned in my church nom that I carry a second body (a Fuji X-pro1) with a 12mm mounted on (so 18mm in FF). It gives a pretty good idea of the final framing, but of course, I take into account additional room around what I see. Once I'm happy, I plug my tripod down and I'm set. Not sure it's faster than how you figure it out since you must be used to it now. By the way, I've came up with the stability question since I've experienced quite a few fails recently, that I've never encounter before. I'm fairly certain this is because I go higher in resolution and of course the higher you go, the less tolerance to vibration. I'm really surprised you managed to go up this far in size without such issues. Your tripod and head might be good, but I guessed you took some extra precaution. I've found out that I had to wait a few second between the instant my fingers left the camera and the moment I take the shot even though the camera appears to be still (and yes, remote control, but no timer for me. I should lock mirror too though). OK think we've been digressing enough. - Benh (talk) 20:13, 18 August 2015 (UTC) [reply]
          • I don't think the Fuji X-pro1 can really give you the same framing as a panorama though. Firstly, the panoramas can be much wider than 18mm (many of mine are as wide as 10-12mm rectilinear). Secondly, most architectural interiors show more of the ceiling than the floor but the only way to maintain parallel verticals with your Fuji camera is to set the mid point on the horizon. This means that you don't have the ability to shoot with more ceiling than floor. Well, you can but if you want to maintain parallel verticals, you need to keep the camera horizontal and crop the bottom, and this reduces the angle of view even further. So I don't really understand how you feel you can get an estimation of the framing with the camera. At least, it wouldn't work for my panoramas. Maybe you just don't shoot as wide as me. As for vibration, yes it really increases dramatically at higher focal lengths. I was doing a test with my 150-600mm today. I had it on a tripod, and extended it to 600mm and the shutter speed was about 1/50th of a second. I used a 2 second timer and compared the vibration from a regular photo to a photo taken with the live view on (mirror lockup). The regular shot was extremely blurry, much more than I expected. The live view shot was perfectly sharp. Obviously 600mm is an extreme example but yes it really makes a big difference. Also, yes, my tripod, ballhead and pano head are pretty good. The three of them combined cost me about €1800. I wouldn't say you need to spend as much as I have just to get sharp photos. It helps to know you can rely on the equipment but more important is mirror lock up and it costs you nothing. ;-) Diliff (talk) 20:57, 18 August 2015 (UTC) [reply]
  •  Support beautiful composition. Well, this comment is not the negligence :) --Laitche (talk) 19:33, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Oppose Another boring church interior picture with overexposed top and mesh of objects in center. --Kikos (talk) 08:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • What is a 'mesh of objects in center'? It's an altar, that's just how they look. If you find church interiors boring, maybe it's best to abstain from voting on them. I know it's hard to separate personal interests from your votes, but we should try not to let our prejudices affect us. This is one of the first gothic churches in the world (actually it's the third oldest, after St Denis Basilica and Noyon Cathedral), so you might find it boring but it's extremely important in Gothic architecture. As for the window, it's overexposed because it's extremely bright compared to the rest of the church, and there is a flare of light around it. It's an HDR image, but there's only so much you can do to rescue such bright highlights without making it look very unrealistic. Would you prefer unrealistic or would you prefer overexposed? Sometimes they're your only options. Diliff (talk) 10:14, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Finding church interiors boring is no valid reason for an oppose. We're looking for high quality pictures with high educational value. There's no doubt that this picture has both. Diliff is right: If you don't like churches you should abstain from voting. --Code (talk) 15:53, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank You both for a educational response! Why boring? Because I can't see altar (low viewpoint), I can't see and evaluate church interior (too many flags), I can't see ceremony (no people). In case if I dont like picture so much, I can't abstain, sorry. --Kikos (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • But it only takes common sense to realize it's much more difficult to get a higher point of view (I don't think Diliff caries scaffoldings with him ;) ), that the sheet must be there for some reason (I don't know but I'm not christian) and that no people are also not distraction (which is good in architecture photography). You may not like it, but it's not a fault, and this is among the very best we have in stock... If I don't like insects, I won't oppose all macro shots... but yes, your decision. - Benh (talk) 19:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • Exactly, this isn't a low viewpoint, it's an normal view of the altar from normal head height. It is what a visitor would typically see, and it's simply not intended to be viewed from above. Yes, the cloths/flags are there for a reason (but I don't know exactly why either). It might simply be for decoration, but I've seen it in many other churches, particularly in Lithuania. Diliff (talk) 21:07, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support --Ralf Roleček 11:03, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support --Tremonist (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support — Julian H.✈ 10:01, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment and  Info : "Gold" and "silver" are liturgical colors for the "happy times" of the christian year. This is for Easter, celebrating the resurrection of Christ, celebrated One week before this pic was taken. Firthermore, Yellow and white are the pontifical colors (flag of the Pope).--Jebulon (talk) 14:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support --Michael Gäbler (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support --Hubertl 18:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support -- Christian Ferrer (talk) 21:18, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support Although I've the impression that the ratio of the statues in the top center is not quite right (they look a bit enlarged in the vertical axle) Poco2 18:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Confirmed results:
Result: 18 support, 1 oppose, 0 neutral → featured. /Poco2 18:18, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This image will be added to the FP gallery: Places/Interiors/Religious buildings
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